2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[Findegil]

c) I agree that ‘Aman’ does not work. It is the coast lands that were flattened by the Valar Valinor itself was already a plain, as we are told.
d) Okay, if all of you are fine with ‘Avarthar’ containing some mist, we will go with that.
j) Aiwendil’s suggestion sound good to me, but is 'Faery' okay in our version?
l) The reference is strictly speaking to Valinor and Eldamar. Therefore 'the Pelóri' or 'the Mountains' does not work so well for me, even so I agree that 'Avathar' is also not perfect that is nearer to Tolkien's own (imperfect) phrase.

Ilmarin: Good catch! But isn’t that a bit like opening the box of Pandora? If we take ‘Ilmarin’, what then about ‘Luvailin’ ‘a mere in Eldamar under the shadow of Oiolossë’? I am inclined to take both. Luvailin belongs to a later chapter, when we speak about the building of Tirion, but Ilamrin should be inserted here:

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, which was the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the Seas. VT-LT-05<LT That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called {ilwë}ilmen that is above the white and grey. This web did Aulë and his wife contrive, but Varda spangled it with stars, and Manwë dwelt thereunder.> VT-EX-37.3 <LotR A Reader’s Companion, Many Meetings, 235 (I:247). Ilmarin For this dwelling of Manwë, Lord of the Valar (the Elder King) upon Oiolossë was used in verse VT-EX-37.4{for}[u]about[/b] Valinor> the name VT-EX-37.3 <LotR A Reader’s Companion, Many Meetings, 235 (I:247). Ilmarin Ilmarin {as ‘},”mansion of the high airs”>. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; …

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I think these are all good. But I would change "Bay of Faery" to "Bay of Eldamar"

[ArcusCalion]

Another addition from MT note on the stars:

..... for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
VT-EX-04.25 <MT {Later, when the Valar took refuge from Melkor, and the imminent ruin of Arda, and built and fortified Valinor in Aman, it} It was Varda who made the great dome above Valinor, to keep out any spirits or spies of Melkor. It was made as a simulacrum of the true firmament (Tar-menel), and the patterns were therein repeated, but with apparent stars (or 'sparks': tinwi) of greater relative size to the total visible area. So that the lesser firmament of Valinor (Nur-menel) was very brilliant.
From this work (chiefly: but also her original demiurgic labors [and later Star-making] were included) she was called ‘Star-kindler'. [Footnote: {elen}[Elen] properly referred to the real stars of Eä (but could also naturally be transferred to their imagines). The words tinwë, ñillë’ (tin ‘spark', ngil ‘silver glint’) and Sindarin tim, gil referred properly to the Valinorian imagines. Hence Quenya Tintallë from tinta cause to sparkle, but also Elentári Queen of Stars'; Sindarin Elbereth, but also Gilthoniel.]>
Therefore the Valar and ......

I know Aiwendil expressed some reservations about the Dome of Varda, so this addition might be somewhat contested.

[Elvellon]

Hey everybody. The work here is so much deeper and more impressive than I could have imagined! I hope I'm not intruding by resurrecting a finished thread for a few tiny things I found, but I want to be helpful all the same. I'm new to participating in this project, so apologies if I don't have the procedure quite down yet...

In VT-EX-36b and VT-EX-36.5 there are two instances of "Iluvatar" instead of "Ilúvatar".

Also in VT-EX-36.5, there is "Yavanna Palúrien" where it should be "Yavanna Kementári".

In VT-EX-38 "elves and men" is used. As far as I know, Elves is always capitalized. Lowercase "men" is used sometimes in the Silmarillion, but I would probably capitalize it here.

In VT-LT-06 "Avarthar" should be Avathar.

In VT-LT-14 "labored" should be "laboured" and "humors" should be "humours".

In general VT-LT-14 seems to be largely a repetition of Vala-04.2 in the Valaquenta - specifically "she dwells alone," and "her halls are west of West, nigh to the borders of the World".

Edit: I somehow missed the discussion of VT-LT-14 on page 1, so my last comment can probably be ignored. However, I did want to address one other thing in VT-LT-13c which is the changing tenses in the paragraph. Here is what I would suggest if it is actually a problem:

Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither {are}[were] they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly {bring}[brought] them here; and {Fui}[Námo] {reads}[read] their hearts.

[Findegil]

Thank you for pointing out the typos.

About VL-LT-13c: I am hestistant to change these. Even if Aman is removed when the text was written or is read, still the fëa of Men would go to that hall. Such shifts in the tense used are found in some palces when Tolkien writes about Valinor/Aman.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I still think we should adopt the 'Indis, daughter of Ingwe' conception, as per PoME (pp. 364-5) - granted, it's not explicit, but in the light of NoME I fail to see any other option: after all, in all the previous versions of Indis and her relationship to Ingwe the genealogical distance was minimal (i.e. 'sister of Ingwe' or 'niece of Ingwe').

[Findegil]

Indis as sister/sister-daughter/daughter of Ingwë: This was discussded under DoV-FM-04 & DoV-FM-05, but of course without the input from NoME. And if we take up the change it will as well make a change necessary in Capter "6 OF Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië / Here are some of the chief names of Finwë and his descendants: / 1. [The names of Finwë and his spouses]"Where Indis is named "the daughter of King Ingwë's sister". I will mark that passage as EPE-EX-21.07.
Now to the point itself: In the light of NoME I agree that Indis as the daugther of Ingwë is probably better. Tha means we would have:

... His second wife was Indis, which means 'great or valiant woman'. No other names are recorded. EPE-EX-21.07 She is said to have been the daughter of King Ingwë{'s sister}.
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§23 It came to pass that after three years more Finwë took as second wife Indis the fair. She was in all ways unlike Míriel. She was not of the Noldor but of the Vanyar, being the DoV-FM-04b {sister}[daughter] of Ingwë; and she was golden-haired and tall and exceedingly swift of foot. She did not labour with her hands, but made music and wove words into song; and there was ever light and mirth about her while the bliss of Aman lasted.
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§27 In one year from their meeting upon the Mountain Finwë, King of the Noldor, wedded Indis, DoV-FM-05b{sister}[daughter] of Ingwë; and the Vanyar and Noldor for the most part rejoiced. ...

Respectfully
Findegil