Celebrimbor

[ArcusCalion]

Well, as you have just said, the story we have elsewhere agreed upon precludes him from being in Gondolin at all. This means that E is not usable insofar as it makes him an elf of Gondolin.

As for F, the first (much longer) version meshes perfectly with the decisions we have made elsewhere, giving the making of the Elessar to a new craftsman: Enerdhil, and leaving the role of Celebrimbor until the second coming of the Elessar. Until we reach drafts for Volume II, the second Elessar question may remain unresolved, but as for the qiuestion of the existence of Celebrimbor in Gondolin, as you have said we have already decided this to be impossible. Therefore, the only story we have left is the Enerdhil story, which dovetails quite nicely with all other existing canon.

[Findegil]

I agree that we might use Enerdhil, even so he was replaced in the manuscript by JRR Tolkien.

But I think we must as well skip the story of the Elessar brought bake from Valinor by Gandalf. The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar? I think that story Comes from a time when the idea about the chronology was quite diffrent. Probabbly when all the Istari came in the Second Age.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

I have come to think (after also wondering about this version of the Elessar tale) that it's Olórin visiting Galadriel before she could use Nenya, in the first of two purposely internal variations.

[Galin]

For clarity perhaps, I mean Olórin before he was Gandalf.

Looking at the text, it reads Olórin said this or that, while the name Mithrandir is only added parenthetically to note who Olórin is -- in my opinion because from JRRT's perspective, Olórin might be an easily forgotten name, especially before the constructed Silmarillion was published, and these fancy internet days.


In one of the Glorfindel texts, it's said.

"That Olorin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this."

[ArcusCalion]

I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there. In addition, due to the vast difference in timing between the two versions (one in the Second and the other in the Third Ages), the narrative cannot be presented as we would like: side by side as two divergent legends. They would be separated by a great deal of text, and this would be difficult to edit without the appearance of contradiction. I have incorporated the second version into the Second Age draft at the very beginning of the chapter Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn, with some minor editing.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I agree with Findegil. As much as I like the story of Olorin, the logical problem is there.

I don't understand, doesn't the Olórin version take away the problem Findegil noted?

Findegil wrote: The story of him visiting Galadriel and giving the stone to here, does not fit the chronology: All the time when Gandalf is around Galadriel was able to use her Ring. So for what would she neede the Elessar?

The "Elessar returned" version states that: "And on a time Olórin came to Galadriel, who dwelt now under the trees of Greenwood the Great; and they had long speech together."

But when's one a time? If the Maia arrives in the Second Age here, we have roughly 1,590 years before the Three are made, and around year 1600, Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron, leaving the Three arguably unsafe to employ until Isildur takes the One in year 3,441.

Or do these windows not work due to some chronology already decided upon?

[gondowe]

In one of the texts of the Istari is said
"Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey.... Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained,..."
This is ( for me ) a good reason to think that the Olorin of the Elessar text could be an Olorin of the pre One Ring Second Age.
But for me there is a problem, And is that Galadriel never dwelt in Greenwood the Great unless we edit it in some way saying that Lorien or Lindorinand was part of it in those days.

Anyway I prefer the version of Enerdhil.

And anyway I gave the Elessar story as a separate text, as a General note at the end of the Third TftE Volume (Fourth volume of The Thain Book), and I conserved both stories maintaining the ambiguous
"and of this two things are said, though which is true only those Wise could say who now are gone."
The only part I inserted in the narrative was the first part:

There was in Gondolin a jewel-smith named Enerdhil, ... This gem Enerdhil gave to Idril the King's daughter, and she wore it upon her breast..."

And

"And before Idril set sail she said to Eärendil ..... So it was that the Elessar passed away, when Eärendil returned no more to Middle-earth"

into the Narn-en-El text.

Greetings