Questions about the host of Valinor

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Rhun charioteer

It's certainly possible and could be at least part of the reason the war of wrath was so cataclysmically destructive. I can also see maybe Ulmo participating in the war after all Beleriand did sink beneath the waves even if he wasn't actually there and the other valar didn't participate at least not directly.

So the powers of the Maiar can also be very devastating? Are these Maiar I mentioned even more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Are these Maiar I mentioned even more powerful than Gandalf and Saruman?

But what is 'power'? Sauron had more worldly power than any other Maia in the history of Arda, but his chief servants could still be beguiled by the Voice of Saruman. Gandalf, meanwhile, arguably exercises his greatest power simply by keeping the flame of hope burning in the hearts of Men; his greatest feat wasn't destroying the Balrog, or breaking Saruman's staff, or calling down fire to strike a host of werewolves, but the simple act of knowing who could be trusted with the Ring - and who could be trusted to accompany him.

By Sauronian measures, Osse is probably the most powerful of the Good Maiar: according to some parts of the Legendarium, he was strong enough to hold the Lonely Isle against the will of Ulmo himself. But Uinen is able to restrain Osse, so perhaps you count her the greater? On the flip side, by Gandalfesque standards, Eonwe has the greatest power - because he was able to lead the Host of Valinor to victory.

hS

"Do not go to the Elves for counsel..."

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But what is 'power'? Sauron had more worldly power than any other Maia in the history of Arda,

I would argue that Melian had more.

But, you're correct in that his was vast. That is a double-edged sword, however, because the act of building up his worldly power diminished his inner power (much like Morgoth) and he was reduced to the pathetic figure of Sharkey in the end, and killed by Wormtongue.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But what is 'power'? Sauron had more worldly power than any other Maia in the history of Arda, but his chief servants could still be beguiled by the Voice of Saruman. Gandalf, meanwhile, arguably exercises his greatest power simply by keeping the flame of hope burning in the hearts of Men; his greatest feat wasn't destroying the Balrog, or breaking Saruman's staff, or calling down fire to strike a host of werewolves, but the simple act of knowing who could be trusted with the Ring - and who could be trusted to accompany him.

By Sauronian measures, Osse is probably the most powerful of the Good Maiar: according to some parts of the Legendarium, he was strong enough to hold the Lonely Isle against the will of Ulmo himself. But Uinen is able to restrain Osse, so perhaps you count her the greater? On the flip side, by Gandalfesque standards, Eonwe has the greatest power - because he was able to lead the Host of Valinor to victory.

hS

"Do not go to the Elves for counsel..."

Since Sauron's power were quite vast, could he be closer to a Ainur than a Maia when he made the ring of power?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Victariongreyjoy

Since Sauron's power were quite vast, could he be closer to a Ainur than a Maia when he made the ring of power?

Maiar are Ainur, together with the Valar. Do you mean Valar? If so, I would say no. The difference between Maiar and Valar seems something inherent, and not proportional to the extent of external power manifestation. It's not like you get a certain amount of power points and reach the Valar level.

[Victariongreyjoy]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Maiar are Ainur, together with the Valar. Do you mean Valar? If so, I would say no. The difference between Maiar and Valar seems something inherent, and not proportional to the extent of external power manifestation. It's not like you get a certain amount of power points and reach the Valar level.

Sorry, yes it was the Valar I was referring to.

[Rhun charioteer]

I'd say it varies-the inherent power of the Valar is very great and some Maiar are very close to them in "power levels" and some are not.

We know the Valar didn't seem to directly participate in the war of wrath but if high level Maiar commanders did then the destruction of Beleriand makes sense.

[Galin]

Tolkien once imagined the Valar having children, and the "sons of the Gods" fighting in Beleriand. But he revised the concept of the Valar having children... and this sentence too (in reference to the War of Wrath)...

"the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible" > "the host of the Gods were arrayed in forms of Valinor" JRRT, War of the Jewels, revised by Christopher Tolkien for the nineteen seventy seven constructed Silmarillion: "... for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet."

Eonwe seems to be present in Beleriand at least.

So... that clears things up