Does the Silmarillion Contradict Third age History? How Powerful Were Those First age

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, the Silmarillion is unpublished to my mind, but anyway, the last section of my last post basically says that if you (or anyone) were pushing the idea that we must accept 3 or 7, I would probably be arguing the other side.

I'd put at least some weight on the ambiguous nature of this matter, and I'm not used to limiting my blatherings to the constructed Silmarillion.

and just to be clear i am not on one side or the other as far as canonization of the sillmarillion. But to even have such a discussion it must be assumed otherwise we have no constant sillmarillion as they would vary from person to person.

Originally Posted by Galin

Why? Tolkien didn't know this thread was someday going to exist

Due to CJRT there's no mention of "hosts/thousands" of Balrogs in the 1977 constructed Silmarillion anyway. If I recall correctly, we have the anglicized plural Balrogs in places, and that the Balrogs were destroyed in the War of Wrath, save "some few" that fled (a description written before the 3 or 7 note).

Gothmog -- slain by Ecthelion

Glorfindel's Bane -- slain by we-know-who

Four Mighty Raugs -- slain in the War of Wrath

Durin's Bane -- slain by Mithrandir

He did however wish to publish his sillmarillion. You would think he would have wanted this corrected if he wished to stick with it rather than his normative of

“Whole thing comes out of the wash quite different to any preliminary sketch”
-Letters of J.R.R Tolkien

“Every part has been [re]written many times”
-Letters of J.R.R Tolkien 130


and as you stated, he held the same view of balrogs [regardless of how they were categorized] for a long period, one note against it is not that great of evidence imo.


I just finished the 1977 sil and I believe it does not say thousands however it does mention many multiple times. More than 7, or at least so it seemed. Maybe someone could help with some direct quotes.

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm also not sure if Tolkien was going to keep his "save some few" that survived -- I think letter 144 can arguably be read two ways regarding this, but admittedly "save some few" messes with my seven little Balrogath list here, in any case.

lol.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

He did however wish to publish his sillmarillion. You would think he would have wanted this corrected if he wished to stick with it rather than his normative of...

Well, for myself I don't find this a very compelling point though, considering how much else had not been updated or revised even at the end of Tolkien's life. Christopher Tolkien even had to deal with some material that still dated to 1930!

And if the notion of reducing numbers waited till 1958 or later (going by the note being found on a text in this phase), then the notion/opportunity of getting The Silmarillion published along with The Lord of the Rings with Waldman, had passed...

... yes, Tolkien still wanted to revise, update, publish his Silmarillion in the later 1950s, 1960s, early 1970s but there was arguably plenty to do outside of this Balrog detail, not to mention work on the long prose versions of the Great Tales.

and as you stated, he held the same view of balrogs [regardless of how they were categorized] for a long period, one note against it is not that great of evidence imo.

A note... and a revision; a revision which CJRT arguably echoed for the 1977 Silmarillion, since...

I just finished the 1977 sil and I believe it does not say thousands however it does mention many multiple times. More than 7, or at least so it seemed. Maybe someone could help with some direct quotes.

But you just read it! Why do I have to do the work... [wanders away]...

... [eats snack, returns] okay, if the Silmarillion index reference pages are complete, then there are no references to "many" Balrogs. Which makes sense to me, as why would CJRT alter a reference to hosts of Balrogs (or whatever), and leave some other reference indicating very many.

Actually, I know I've written a post concerning the Tolkien-made revision to AAm, including instances that were never changed by JRRT himself (for whatever reason), compared to CJRT's revised wording in the 1977 Silmarillion. It might even be here at BD somewhere, but I can't recall at the moment.

Anyway, as I said, there are instances of the anglicized plural (Balrog-s), and this "some few" survived text (with respect to the War of Wrath), and now I'll add that we have one description of "another" Balrog at one point, indicating two in the scene...

... or at least two, if you like

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by Galin

Well, for myself I don't find this a very compelling point though, considering how much else had not been updated or revised even at the end of Tolkien's life. Christopher Tolkien even had to deal with some material that still dated to 1930!

And if the notion of reducing numbers waited till 1958 or later (going by the note being found on a text in this phase), then the notion/opportunity of getting The Silmarillion published along with The Lord of the Rings with Waldman, had passed...

... yes, Tolkien still wanted to revise, update, publish his Silmarillion in the later 1950s, 1960s, early 1970s but there was arguably plenty to do outside of this Balrog detail, not to mention work on the long prose versions of the Great Tales.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Galin

A note... and a revision; a revision which CJRT arguably echoed for the 1977 Silmarillion, since...

But you just read it! Why do I have to do the work... [wanders away]...

... [eats snack, returns] okay, if the Silmarillion index reference pages are complete, then there are no references to "many" Balrogs. Which makes sense to me, as why would CJRT alter a reference to hosts of Balrogs (or whatever), and leave some other reference indicating very many.

Actually, I know I've written a post concerning the Tolkien-made revision to AAm, including instances that were never changed by JRRT himself (for whatever reason), compared to CJRT's revised wording in the 1977 Silmarillion. It might even be here at BD somewhere, but I can't recall at the moment.

Anyway, as I said, there are instances of the anglicized plural (Balrog-s), and this "some few" survived text (with respect to the War of Wrath), and now I'll add that we have one description of "another" Balrog at one point, indicating two in the scene...

... or at least two, if you like

without direct quotes to look up or the care/energy to. I think this cannot progress. Maybe we can be lazy and Eldorion can give us some of the qoutes

[Galin]

Originally Posted by R.R.J Tolkien

without direct quotes to look up or the care/energy to. I think this cannot progress. Maybe we can be lazy and Eldorion can give us some of the quotes

You don't trust my characterizations of the references? Do I need to post all of 'em? That's a lot of typing

But here's some copy and paste of one of my old posts: some of the examples, with CJRT's alterations.


1: 'Wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but Morgoth sent the greater, and they were Balrogs. Maidros was ambushed...' Of The Siege of Angband (Quenta Silmarillion) [] '... but Morgoth sent the more, and there were Balrogs.' Of The Return of the Noldor (The Silmarillion)

2: 'Sauron came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of Balrogs.' Of the Ruin of Beleriand And the Fall of Fingolfin (Quenta Silmarillion) [] '... named Gorthaur, came against Orodreth, the warden of the tower upon Tol Sirion.' Of The Ruin Of Beleriand (The Silmarillion)

3: 'There came wolves and serpents, and there came Balrogs one thousand,...' Of the Fourth Battle: Nírnaith Arnediad (Quenta Silmarillion) [] 'There came wolves and wolfriders, and there came Balrogs, and dragons...' Of The Fifth Battle (The Silmarillion)

1 This description (from the QS tradition) survived into LQS despite a number of other post Lord of the Rings revisions to this chapter.

2 The second example (Orodreth and etc) also was not revised -- with Tolkien even altering §143 of the chapter, but not the 'host' of Balrogs passage.

3 The third example 'survived' too, but noting CJRT's description under The Last Chapters Of The Quenta Silmarillion, it looks like JRRT never really got around to truly revising this chapter in any case.

4 The Grey Annals contains 'Balrogs a thousand' §230, but nothing is noted as to any changes in the later 1950s.


It's not unreasonable that these references survived simply because Tolkien missed them, or never got around to altering them. I must admit that example two does seem especially odd, but I can't recall if the chronology is detailed enough to arrive at an answer that way, and in any case, for example, we do have CJRT's own warning about Tolkien's "cursory" correction with respect to the conclusion of QS, perhaps suggesting that sometimes Tolkien could make alterations while not fully revising everything in the same text.

I would agree that that could easily become a slippery slope in given arguments however, so I'll just end with...

... or something else

[R.R.J Tolkien]

Originally Posted by galin

you don't trust my characterization of the references? Do i need to post all of 'em? Here's some of the examples, with cjrt's alterations.


1: 'wherefore each embassy came with greater force than was agreed, but morgoth sent the greater, and they were balrogs. Maidros was ambushed...' of the siege of angband (quenta silmarillion) [] '... But morgoth sent the more, and there were balrogs.' of the return of the noldor (the silmarillion)

2: 'sauron came against orodreth, the warden of the tower, with a host of balrogs.' of the ruin of beleriand and the fall of fingolfin (quenta silmarillion) [] '... Named gorthaur, came against orodreth, the warden of the tower upon tol sirion.' of the ruin of beleriand (the silmarillion)

3: 'there came wolves and serpents, and there came balrogs one thousand,...' of the fourth battle: Nírnaith arnediad (quenta silmarillion) [] 'there came wolves and wolfriders, and there came balrogs, and dragons...' of the fifth battle (the silmarillion)

[1 this description (from the qs tradition) survived into lqs despite a number of other post lord of the rings revisions to this chapter. 2 the second example (orodreth and etc) also was not revised -- with tolkien even altering §143 of the chapter, but not the 'host' of balrogs passage (see below).

3 the third example 'survived' too, but noting cjrt's description under the last chapters of the quenta silmarillion, it looks like jrrt never really got around to truly revising this chapter in any case.]

4. The grey annals contains 'balrogs a thousand' §230, but nothing is noted as to any changes in the later 1950s.


It's not reasonable that these references survived simply because tolkien missed them, or never got around to altering them. And as we can see, christopher tolkien's revisions alter these 'surviving' references to large numbers of balrogs.

ty

[Galin]

That last bit should read not "unreasonable"... basically you quoted me pretty quickly before my edits/poor proof reading/added extra mumblings.

Oh well

[Huinesoron]

To highlight one specific and concrete example of Tolkien making (not just considering and never writing) significant post-LotR changes to the Legendarium, the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (found in HoME X Morgoth's Ring) was written in 1959. It dramatically changes the in-universe view of the lifespan of mortals - according to Andreth, they were originally either immortal or very long-lived, until they fell by worshipping Melkor! - and introduces not only something that looks very much like a prediction of Jesus Christ (the Old Hope), but also Finrod's prophecy of Arda Remade, after the Dagor Dagorath.

The Athrabeth therefore radically changes both the beginning and the end of the Middle-earth story, and does so with absolutely no precedent. (I believe it also introduces the doomed Aegnor/Andreth romance, which would certainly cast the other Eldar/Edain relationships in a different light.) It's a wonderful piece of writing, and I don't think it could have been written - and certainly not in this form - had the 1937 Silmarillion been finished and published.

But at the same time as the Athrabeth was written, Tolkien was (per the intro to the 'later Quenta Silmarillion' section) writing the Valinorean sections of the Quenta afresh, and putting corrections to the Beleriand parts (which still weren't finished!). What we have is a very clear model of how Tolkien revised his work:

-If something was substantially okay, he made notes on the typescript.
-If he didn't like the style or content, he wrote a new version, sometimes without looking at the original.
-If he had a new idea, he wrote a new story to hold it.

And all of this at once, and with no regards for whether it drew the work closer to or further from completion!

~

Specifically regarding Balrogs, HoME X contains these quotes:

From the Annals of Aman (post-LotR, revised from the Annals of Valinor)

-"[In the first Year of the Trees] in Utumno he wrought the race of demons whom the Elves after named the Balrogs."

-"... he sent forth on a sudden a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained, and... they were withered in the wind of [Manwe's] wrath and slain with the lightning of his sword; and Melkor stood at last alone."

-A note by CT that the first quote above post-dates the idea of Maiar.

-Tolkien's revision to the first entry: "... in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits who followed him, the Umaiar, of whom the chief were those whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath."

-Tolkien's famous note (the '3 or at most 7' one) accompanies the change of the second entry from "a host of Balrogs" to simply "his Balrogs".

-(During the Thieves' Quarrel) "Then there came to his aid the Balrogs, who endured still in the deep places of the North..."

From the Quenta Silmarillion (late 1950s)

-"... gathered his demons about him. These were the first madr of his creatures: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them... Balrogs they were named..."

-Note to the above: "See Valaquenta for true account." (which points to the text as in the published Silm)

-Edit to the above: "These were the spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire" etc.

-From a later period, after the writing of the Laws and Customs, we have text of the attack on Ungoliant, essentially as it appears in the Silm (right down to 'winged speed'!).

From late material (aka Myths Transformed)

-"The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal." This is significant in seemingly ruling out armies of Balrogs.

-Notes that Balrogs are not as powerful as Sauron, and that Balrogs are corrupted Maiar.

hS