Does the Silmarillion Contradict Third age History? How Powerful Were Those First age - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Huinesoron · 03-17-2018, 06:41 AM

Indeed.

My counterpoint is that, in his latest material when he was trying to make the Silm more grounded and realistic, Tolkien explicitly noted that he needed to make Melkor /more/ powerful than he was already shown as being. He didn't want to bring things down to a more primitive state - he wanted to increase the already high power levels of his characters. (The essay is clear that this isn't a weakening of everyone else, either, but definitely a strengthening of Melkor.)

hS

Eldy · 03-18-2018, 02:22 PM

I think Huinesoron raises a good point. Tolkien's attempts to make "The Silmarillion" more consistent with LOTR and more plausible in certain ways certainly did not mean removing all of the supernatural/mythological elements, nor do I think it would have been necessary to do so to achieve his goal. The theme of decline and the fact that much from the past had been forgotten or degraded is very much present in LOTR. Whether the Star of Eärendil as seen by Sam in the late Third Age should be understood as literally a Silmaril strapped to the forehead of a guy in a magic ship is, I think, questionable (though at the time Tolkien wrote LOTR it probably was), but there's much else that can't be excised from the mythology without actually creating inconsistencies with LOTR, including the Silmarils themselves and most of the qualities ascribed to them.

03-17-2018, 06:41 AM	#1
Huinesoron Overshadowed Eagle Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea Posts: 3,958	Indeed. My counterpoint is that, in his latest material when he was trying to make the Silm more grounded and realistic, Tolkien explicitly noted that he needed to make Melkor /more/ powerful than he was already shown as being. He didn't want to bring things down to a more primitive state - he wanted to increase the already high power levels of his characters. (The essay is clear that this isn't a weakening of everyone else, either, but definitely a strengthening of Melkor.) hS

03-18-2018, 02:22 PM	#2
Eldy Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Maryland, United States Posts: 22	I think Huinesoron raises a good point. Tolkien's attempts to make "The Silmarillion" more consistent with LOTR and more plausible in certain ways certainly did not mean removing all of the supernatural/mythological elements, nor do I think it would have been necessary to do so to achieve his goal. The theme of decline and the fact that much from the past had been forgotten or degraded is very much present in LOTR. Whether the Star of Eärendil as seen by Sam in the late Third Age should be understood as literally a Silmaril strapped to the forehead of a guy in a magic ship is, I think, questionable (though at the time Tolkien wrote LOTR it probably was), but there's much else that can't be excised from the mythology without actually creating inconsistencies with LOTR, including the Silmarils themselves and most of the qualities ascribed to them.