Thuringwethil

[Nerwen]

Beorn is definitely a Man. There is a direct word-of-author statement to this effect, in The Letters of J.R.R.Tolkien: "Though a skin-changer and no doubt a bit of a magician, Beorn was a Man". Enigmatic he may be in other ways, but his species isn't.

And denethorthefirst, in your last post you state flatly that it is impossible for a Child of Ilúvatar to alter its hröa, then in the very next paragraph you admit that Felagund "obviously" could, at least according to The Lay of Leithian, but then you say that doesn't count because it's in "non-fundamental ways". Don't you think your reasoning here is a bit all over the place? I mean, either the thing is a absolute, categorical impossibility or it isn't. I don't think there's a middle ground on that one.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Don't you think your reasoning here is a bit all over the place?

Yes, quite a bit all over the place But let me explain.

Tolkien stated in his writings (Osanwe-Kenta, among others if i remember correctly) that Elves have a higher degree of control over their hröa than men and other Children of Iluvatar. I always interpreted this higher degree to be the product of their immortality, more powerful spirits, better healthcare, better education, and so on. But, if we take the Lay of Leithian into account, this higher degree of control over the body/bodily functions also allowed powerful elven Lords to change aspects of their hröa (maybe only for a specific amount of time). Is that "shapeshifting"? One certainly can't compare this to the shapeshifting abilities of naturally discarnate beings (like for example the Ainur) who can discard their "raiments" at will, change them fundamentally, form new ones or completely do without one. Be that as it may, I maintain my position that the Lay of Leithian is problematic in this regard. It does not fit what Tolkien wrote in later years and, as it is a very early writing (written in the late 1920s), if it can be considered "canon" is, in my opinion, questionable.

In the Silmarillion the aforementioned passage from the Lay of Leithian reads as follows:

"By the arts of Felagund their own forms and faces were changed into the likeness of Orcs; and thus disguised they came far upon their northward road, and ventured into the western pass, between Ered Wethrin and the Highlands of Taur-nur-Fuin. But Sauron in his towers was ware of them [...] Thus befell the contest of Sauron and Felagund which is renowned. [...] Then Sauron STRIPPED from them their DISGUISE, and they stood before him naked and afraid." (SIL, Page 154).

Oxford Dictionary of English:

strip |strɪp|
verb (strips, stripping, stripped) [ with obj. ]
remove all coverings from: they stripped the bed.
• remove the clothes from (someone): [ with obj. and complement ] : the man had been stripped naked.

disguise |dɪsˈɡʌɪz|
verb [ with obj. ]
give (someone or oneself) a different appearance in order to conceal one's identity: he disguised himself as a girl | Bryn was disguised as a priest | (as adj.disguised) : a disguised reporter.
noun
a means of altering one's appearance to conceal one's identity: I put on dark glasses as a disguise.
• [ mass noun ] the state of having altered one's appearance in order to conceal one's identity: I told them you were a policewoman in disguise.

Following these definitions: a "disguise" only changes the outward appearance, but not the nature of the body and you can't "strip" someone of his body or his face, etc., a "strip" removes outer layers that conceal the body.

So, if Felagund actually changed the hröa of himself and his companions is left quite ambiguous by Tolkien. But it seems that Felagund only worked some kind of spell that created a disguise i.e. an illusion, to create the appearance of orcs without actually changing the hröa. That actually makes a lot more sense, in my opinion.

If high elven Lords can change aspects of their hröa, than why didn't the Istari do the same, or Sauron? Why didn't he grow his missing finger back? If a mere Elf Lord can change the size of his ears, it should be easy for a powerful Ainu like Sauron to recreate a missing finger! Why couldn't Morgoth heal his Scars? And so on. Yes, the permanent scarring, the loss of the finger is of course also symbolical, but still, my point stand. The Istari, Sauron and Morgoth could not do that because they were, at this point in the story, fully INCARNATE just like the Elves, Humans and Dwarves, and because of that no longer able to change their hröa, even if they, because of their greatness, spiritual superiority and their origin, still possessed a significantly higher degree of control over their hröa and its bodily functions, changing it or "shapeshifting" was no longer in their power.

We may have to agree to disagree here, but i dont think that the idea that incarnates can shapeshift or change aspects of their hröa fits Tolkiens world. Regarding Beorn, i always interpreted him, like the giants and talking foxes, to be nothing more than folklore ... yes i know, the translator conceit ...

[Rhun charioteer]

I always did wonder what was Thuringwethil exactly? A Maia? A creature come from Morgoth's discord in the void?