The Powers of the Istari

[denethorthefirst]

Yes, i am aware of that. I also read the Unfinished Tales. Of course the incarnation is meant to be a sacrifice. Still, the whole suicide mission aspect only makes sense if the Valar promised to rehouse/remake those Maiar after their victory over Sauron. But, considering that the mission seems to be somewhat "voluntary", it appears to me that those five Maiar really have gotten the short end of the stick. The Valar really appear rather harsh here if you think about it and considering that the mission is voluntary, they could be a bit more lenient. It is completely understandable that someone like Saruman, working actively against the Children, would be denied a return to Valinor. But what about Radagast? If his hröa had been killed by some Orc during the War in Mirkwood or "died" because of old age a few thousand years later, then thats it? His Spirit doomed to remain houseless in Middle-Earth for all eternity? Harsh ... Same with Gandalf, if Eru hadn't intervened after his battle against the Balrog that would probably have been it? Maybe their Spirits would have been able to go naked/houseless to Valinor on their own/by themselves, but thats not the impression i got after reading.

Edit: Thinking a bit more about that, the stance of the Valar really seems hypocritical, because after all they, collectively, made the SAME mistake that Radagast made in the early history of Arda. They left Middle-Earth after Melkor destroyed the Lamps and they made Aman their home, maybe at first as a retreat and a fortress from which to renew the battle against Melkor at a later time (and because they did not have enough power to overthrow Melkor at that time). But still, essentially it appears that they procrastinated in their little paradise for over 13 000 (!) years, fell in love with the land of Valinor, the flora and fauna, and more or less forgot about their mission (to care for the Children) while Melkor ruled and ruined Middle-Earth as he wished. Even after the Awakening of the Elves it took the Valar several decades (over 40 years!) to eventually take action! And after the Awakening of Men they did even less ... probably couldn't be bothered because they were still sulking because of the Flight of the Noldor. This dereliction of duty is actually quite unbelievable and its a wonder humans turned out as well as they did in Tolkiens world, considering that Melkor had a free hand for several centuries to proceed with them as he pleased, completely unhindered by the Valar. Would it not be more than hypocritical of the Valar to punish Radagast and deny him re-entry after they essentially made exactly the same mistake, only repeatedly and on a much, much grander scale?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

Would it not be more than hypocritical of the Valar to punish Radagast and deny him re-entry after they essentially made exactly the same mistake, only repeatedly and on a much, much grander scale?

Yes, it would.

So?

One of the wonderful things about Tolkien being Christian is that he never saw the Valar as gods in the setting, but as fallible beings. The Valar make a whole string of terrible mistakes; the first is probably letting their guard down for Tulkas' wedding and letting Melkor back in, though 'sticking giant globes of fire up on poles for light' is a pretty dangerous move too. Running away from the world was a terrible misdeed, and it was only chance/the will of the One that made them aware of the coming of the Children at all.

The decision to move the Eldar to Aman was also a mistake, and I believe Tolkien notes as much (he definitely sides with Ulmo on most things, and Ulmo was against it). My guess is that the war against Melkor broke a lot of Middle-earth (I seem to remember that the Misty Mountains were raised by Melkor at that time), and it just seemed nicer to bring the Eldar to their pretty home rather than trying to a) put some form of light in the wider world and b) fix the mess. But it was a mistake, and it led to everything that went wrong after.

Later on, Manwe is oblivious to any form of evil, and basically assumes his brother will be good now Just Because. He punishes Feanor, and Feanor alone, for the changes happening in Noldorin society. The Valar collectively snub Feanor to the point where he won't even consider handing over the Silmarils after the Trees die. And they completely fumble his little insurrection. How did the Noldor manage to slaughter Alqualonde, right under the eye of the Valar?

The answer, clear as starlight, is that Manwe's response to any crisis is to pull his head in. Melkor's ruined our plans for Arda? Let's make an island right in the middle, as far from him as possible, and live there. Melkor destroyed the lamps? Let's go to a completely different landmass. The Children are living in a war zone? Let's bring them here, to our safe space. Melkor might still be bad? Nope, nope, it's all that elf's fault. The Trees are dead and the Noldor are revolting? Raise the mountains higher, close the gates, and let them do whatever they want!

The Valar (Ulmo significantly aside) ignore the pleas of everyone in Beleriand, including the Edain and the Sindar (who have no culpability for the Noldor's crimes). They do absolutely nothing to stop Sauron throughout the entire Second Age. They refuse to protect their people when the Numenoreans invade, passing the buck up to Iluvatar. They don't let any returning Eldar back into Aman proper, stuffing them onto Eressea to keep them from contaminating Paradise. And their sole response to Sauron's resurgence in the Third Age is to send five Maiar to poke around.

---

So now that we're back on-topic, what was the purpose of the Istari? Was it to protect the Children of Iluvatar? Or was it, entirely in line with the previous actions of the Valar, solely to keep Sauron from causing another Numenor Incident? (Numenor, I'll remind you, was a gift from the Valar to Men - the only one they ever gave them - and look how that turned out...! Suddenly it makes a lot more sense why their emissaries in the Third Age came in disguise.) If the latter, then Radagast's drifting-away wasn't just 'you got distracted from your humanitarian mission' - it was 'soldier, you have abandoned the defence of the Motherland'.

Speculative, I know - wildly so - but it has ties to the fate of the returning (ie, dying) Noldor in the First Age. We're specifically told that they weren't allowed to leave the Halls of Mandos for a long time, which is not the normal way of things. Whether that's a punishment, a treatment regime, or a quarantine is unsaid.

Unfortunately the metaphysics of Middle-earth isn't clear enough to answer the question of whether a Maia could be constrained in Mandos against their will. If not, then the only way to keep Radagast (or the Blues) from wandering straight back into Aman... would be to insist he stay in Middle-earth, or send him to the Timeless Halls (which may not even be possible).

It's messed up. It's seriously messed up. But Manwe always has been.

hS

[Rhun charioteer]

Well regarding the numenorians-I think that was more the valar weren't allowed to harm or outright kill the Eruhini or punish them. The Valar could have destroyed them without appealing to Eru but that wasn't how the valar operated.

Ar-Pharazon and his people had for all intents and purposes tried to storm the pearly gates or to use a pagan analogy Mt. Olympus.

Something had to be done about it-the valar could likely have crushed the numenorians without any real effort but that would have gone against the restrictions placed on them, the elves could have fought them off-the elves were promised peace in Aman, really the only option at that point was to hand it over to Eru.

[Huinesoron]

There are dozens of ways the Valar could have dealt with the Numenoreans without harming anyone. The Bay of Eldamar was previously protected by a raging storm and, in some versions of the legendarium, a string of isles which put anyone trying to pass them into an endless sleep. We're also talking about the people who raised a massive mountain range in order to keep Melkor from sending anything nasty their way (and then raised it higher at a later date!).

The answer to this is that putting any of that in place would have made it impossible for the Eldar to leave Middle-earth, but... what, removing Valinor entirely from the spheres of the world wouldn't? Sure, maybe it would require a bit more attention to detail than Manwe was used to (I assume he would be the one controlling the storm), but they're the Valar, they could absolutely do that.

But that would have left the Numenoreans as a continuing annoyance. The Valar clearly didn't want that - but they also didn't want to take any measures themselves. And it's not like the Numenoreans were harmless: they reached Eressea, Alqualonde, and Tirion under arms, and could easily have sacked any of those. The only city the Valar actually protected by their actions was Valmar - you know, the one they themselves lived in.

hS

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But that would have left the Numenoreans as a continuing annoyance. The Valar clearly didn't want that - but they also didn't want to take any measures themselves. And it's not like the Numenoreans were harmless: they reached Eressea, Alqualonde, and Tirion under arms, and could easily have sacked any of those. The only city the Valar actually protected by their actions was Valmar - you know, the one they themselves lived in.

It wasn't that the Valar were reluctant to deal with Numenor themselves; they lacked the authority to take such drastic action as the situation merited.
As the Governors of Arda, they deferred to the One to correct his Children directly.