Celebrimbor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArcusCalion · 05-23-2018, 04:04 PM

As it stands then, it seems we have two things to resolve:

1) Who made the first Elessar, Enerdhil or Celebrimbor?
2) Is the alternate version of Olorin possible?

Number 2 is easier to answer, and I think we are actually now all agreed that it is indeed possible, and thus the two versions should be presented together, in order to preserve the ambiguity that Tolkien himself inserted. However, the issue is that of 'The Forest.' Should we change this? In both versions the idea is present that Galadriel is not dwelling in Eregion at that time, but in the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn she most certainly is dwelling there, at least at the time of the second version of the tale, as when she lived in Lorinand she was not on speaking terms with Celebrimbor, since he had just revolted against her. Therefore, should we change the references to 'the forest' and Greenwood the Great' to Eregion?

Number 1 is more difficult because of the difficulty presented by Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Fin's edit solves that problem neatly, but I wonder: are we inventing too much, to have him give the Elessar to her so much earlier? I suppose it boils down to this: which fact is more important:
1) Celebrimbor, not Enerdhil made the Elessar, or
2) It was made in Gondolin, not Nargothrond.
No matter what we decide, we are changing one of those things. Tolkien himself changed the first one, so that does tend to make me think that Fin is correct in his edit, since if 1) is true, then 2) must be true as well.

The conclusion of all this? I agree with Fin's changes to the First Age drafts, and I think we can in fact give both variants of the Second Age Elessar material, but I think we still need to decide where Galadriel is dwelling at that time.

05-23-2018, 04:04 PM	#11
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	As it stands then, it seems we have two things to resolve: 1) Who made the first Elessar, Enerdhil or Celebrimbor? 2) Is the alternate version of Olorin possible? Number 2 is easier to answer, and I think we are actually now all agreed that it is indeed possible, and thus the two versions should be presented together, in order to preserve the ambiguity that Tolkien himself inserted. However, the issue is that of 'The Forest.' Should we change this? In both versions the idea is present that Galadriel is not dwelling in Eregion at that time, but in the text Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn she most certainly is dwelling there, at least at the time of the second version of the tale, as when she lived in Lorinand she was not on speaking terms with Celebrimbor, since he had just revolted against her. Therefore, should we change the references to 'the forest' and Greenwood the Great' to Eregion? Number 1 is more difficult because of the difficulty presented by Celebrimbor in Gondolin. Fin's edit solves that problem neatly, but I wonder: are we inventing too much, to have him give the Elessar to her so much earlier? I suppose it boils down to this: which fact is more important: 1) Celebrimbor, not Enerdhil made the Elessar, or 2) It was made in Gondolin, not Nargothrond. No matter what we decide, we are changing one of those things. Tolkien himself changed the first one, so that does tend to make me think that Fin is correct in his edit, since if 1) is true, then 2) must be true as well. The conclusion of all this? I agree with Fin's changes to the First Age drafts, and I think we can in fact give both variants of the Second Age Elessar material, but I think we still need to decide where Galadriel is dwelling at that time.