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Old 06-08-2018, 06:51 PM   #1
R.R.J Tolkien
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So I cant find it online but pages 141-142 of The Inklings C.S Lewis J.R.R Tolkien, Charles Williams and their friends. Humphrey Carpenter Harper Collins Publishers 2006

gives a small example of some of the discussions on evolution by the inklings. It seems from this section that evolution as in Darwinian upward complexity evolution is rejected, a few reasons are given.
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Old 06-09-2018, 01:00 AM   #2
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I agree with Legate that continuing to list examples of Christian (or indeed Norse) themes in Tolkien's writing is off-topic for this thread, and I'm sorry for contributing to it.

R.R.J., it would be really interesting if you could copy out some of that Inklings evolution discussion. I've not run up against any relevant quotes anywhere else (and don't own the Inklings biography), so it's possible that quote is the only basis for discussion.

Coming back to Myths Transformed, I thought I'd compile a few actual quotes from the collection that have bearing on Tolkien's thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 1
When however (no matter how little most people know or think about astronomy) it is the general belief that we live on a 'spherical' island in 'Space', you cannot [write a Flat Earth cosmology] any more.
This quote is actually... really weird. Tolkien isn't saying that he wants his story to be more true to life; he's saying that it's fundamentally wrong to write a story that conflicts with the majority understanding of nature. More and mor, it feels like Tolkien viewed everything as a story, rejecting objective truth entirely and basing his judgements solely on 'what most people believe'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 2
[Elven] legends should have a closer relation to the knowledge now possessed of at least the form of the Solar System (=Kingdom of Arda); though it need not, of course, follow any 'scientific' theory of its making or development.
'Scientific' in quotes yet again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MT 2
[Melkor's first attacks] will, roughly, correspond to supposed primeval epochs before Earth became habitable. A time of fire and cataclysm.
This section also directly references 'the orbit of Earth', and also insists that the Sun has to be coeval with the Earth.

And that is... Actually about it. MT then moves on to discuss later events, and does so mostly in-universe; we don't get anything else that sheds light on Tolkien's thinking behind the changes. Well, so it goes.

hS
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Old 06-09-2018, 03:27 AM   #3
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Nice discoveries there, hS. I think the first quote looks like Tolkien is talking about what would the public and the critics accept from a "good writer" at that time. The same way writing free-form verse would be considered awkward at certain time, or using outdated words would seem strange.

Why "scientific" is in quotation marks in the second one is hard to tell. But we should bear in mind that the first half of 20th century was also ripe with all kinds of new theories that may have seemed crazy, and also "esoteric pseudo-science" had been popular since earlier on. He may be refering to anything or nothing in particular.

The third quote at least seems to quite clearly indicate, whatever Tolkien's view of Earth's beginning was, it was not a literal copy-paste of Genesis. "A time of fire and cataclysm" does not sound like anything from the harmonious picture painted there, and to me it also sounds like simplified, average person's way of talking about the formation of primal Earth according to the latest theories in geology/astronomy of his time.

P. S. And I second the request for quotes about the Inklings - that's exactly the kind of stuff that might be interesting and good to have quoted here, if it can be found.
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Old 06-09-2018, 06:01 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc View Post

The third quote at least seems to quite clearly indicate, whatever Tolkien's view of Earth's beginning was, it was not a literal copy-paste of Genesis. "A time of fire and cataclysm" does not sound like anything from the harmonious picture painted there, and to me it also sounds like simplified, average person's way of talking about the formation of primal Earth according to the latest theories in geology/astronomy of his time.

P. S. And I second the request for quotes about the Inklings - that's exactly the kind of stuff that might be interesting and good to have quoted here, if it can be found.
I think you might be right on the first. He did not just copy paste geneses. However his world was the act of speech and creation of fully formed creatures, not an evolutionary history. But once more the old earth history seems to be their.



I will do my best tomorrow to quote it, off to soccer. The book on lewis views on Darwin is a good source as well posted in my op.
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Old 06-09-2018, 05:58 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
I agree with Legate that continuing to list examples of Christian (or indeed Norse) themes in Tolkien's writing is off-topic for this thread, and I'm sorry for contributing to it.

R.R.J., it would be really interesting if you could copy out some of that Inklings evolution discussion. I've not run up against any relevant quotes anywhere else (and don't own the Inklings biography), so it's possible that quote is the only basis for discussion.

Coming back to Myths Transformed, I thought I'd compile a few actual quotes from the collection that have bearing on Tolkien's thinking.



This quote is actually... really weird. Tolkien isn't saying that he wants his story to be more true to life; he's saying that it's fundamentally wrong to write a story that conflicts with the majority understanding of nature. More and mor, it feels like Tolkien viewed everything as a story, rejecting objective truth entirely and basing his judgements solely on 'what most people believe'.



'Scientific' in quotes yet again.



This section also directly references 'the orbit of Earth', and also insists that the Sun has to be coeval with the Earth.

And that is... Actually about it. MT then moves on to discuss later events, and does so mostly in-universe; we don't get anything else that sheds light on Tolkien's thinking behind the changes. Well, so it goes.

hS

I have spent a good amount of time trying to cheat and find it online to post here and cannot. I have my kids soccer tournament today perhaps tomorrow i could or at least a short summary [but would you trust me].



Thanks for posting some quotes and since I have not yet read the material, i can only comment and guess at context. As to the first I dont think your conclusion is correct. If you read his letters or bio's i dont think one can say Tolkien objected to truth or held some relative truth. Nor is he one to simply accept majority opinion because the majority accept it. My guess is it seems he went from his early northern mythology [early sillmarillion] and wanted to make it more in line with lotr and it taking place in our actual earth in a historical time period.



Right. Science good, evolution not part of science [but that is another thread]. But he was referring to eleven science and what the elves would know. Tolkien was not a creator but a discoverer, he discovered what these people and places would be based on their language, history etc.


This last one is very, very interesting and deserves thought. Thanks for posting these now i must get the home.


Thanks good post.
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