Akallabêth

[ArcusCalion]

This is a very long and difficult chapter, especially because of the Lost Road addition, which has quite a few issues in terms of modern canon. I anticipate that we may run into some disagreements along the way, but I will here lay out my comments. It will be rather long, so I beg pardon.

BY-HL-16: Because we know (from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) that the 'Akallabeth' is an in-universe document like the Valaquenta and Ainulindale, I hesitate to use this title for this chapter. I think we have taken too much from the actual document, and so I think it would be better to use the original title The Fall of Númenor.

AK-HA-01: What is this marker referencing?

AK-HA-03: Why was this changed in the published version? I can't seem to find the info, and I'm curious. Just want to make sure there arent any contradictions.

AK-SL-02: This is fine, but we should leave out the initial 'For' since it isn't in reference to anything in this new setting.The sentence should simply start with "Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd ..."

AK-SL-04: This is fine, but there are two missed {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] changes. Also part of the treatment of the outline I think should be changed slightly thus:

And Amandil and Pharazôn rode in Andúnië and Elentir and {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw them afar as they {[?}stood{] .....}/watching for them,/ for Elentir loved his brother.

The italicized part is my own addition. I added this because otherwise there is no explanation for the phrase 'for Elentir loved his brother.' Because of the 'for' there, it is clearly meant to be explaining a previous statement, but the statement was illegible. Thus, we must approximate one. Finally, the final use of 'Zimrahil's' should just be 'her' since we used her name just last sentence, and it is awkward to repeat it so soon. Tolkien wrote a bunch in between, but it was illegible, so we should change it to be smoother.

AK-SL-05: The initial 'but' should be changed to an 'And' because the 'but' no longer applies.

AK-SL-06: There is one piece of info which is lost in yours from the base Akallabeth text, which I would like to add in:

And when they were wedded she yielded the scepter to Pharazôn, and he sat upon the throne of Elros in the name of Ar-Pharazôn the Golden, AK-SL-06.5 <Akallabêth (Tar-Calion in the Elven tongue)> but she retained also her title as hers by right, and was called Ar-{Zimrahil}[Zimraphel].{(16)}

AK-SL-07: Why would we not just stick with text a? It is longer and has a few more details. Seems simpler to me.

AK-HA-09: What is this reference referring to?

AK-SL-08: This is fine, but I want to add in the story of the coming of Sauron from the Lost Road here. In the Lost Road, Sauron is also brought as a captive, so it is the same as in our version, but here there is an added story that he rescued the fleet from a storm, as a sign of his power and the power of Melkor. I think this story actually helps us understand how he was able to convince the King to worship Melkor so easily. Tolkien never contradicted the story in any later writing, and therefore I see no reason to leave it out.

But Ar-Pharazôn was not yet deceived, and it came into his mind that, for the better keeping of Sauron and of his oaths of fealty, he should be brought to Númenor, there to dwell as a hostage for himself and all his servants in Middle-earth. To this Sauron assented as one constrained, yet in his secret thought he received it gladly, for it chimed indeed with his desire. And Sauron passed over the sea. AK-SL-08.5 <Lost Road Guards were set at the haven of {Morionde}[Rómenna] in the east of the land, where the rocks are dark, watching {at the king's command} without ceasing for the ships' return. It was night, but there was a bright Moon. They descried ships far off, and they seemed to be sailing west at a speed greater than the storm, though there was little wind. Suddenly the sea became unquiet; it rose until it became like a mountain, and it rolled upon the land. {The}[Some] ships were lifted up, and cast far inland, and lay in the fields. <Copied from earlier in the narrative But the [rest of the] fleet came at last [to land].> Upon that ship which was cast highest and stood dry upon a hill there was a man, or one in man's shape, but greater than any even of the race of Númenor in stature.
He stood upon the rock and said: ‘This is done as a sign of power. For I am AK-SL-08.7 {Sauron}[Tar-Mairon] the mighty, servant of the Strong’ (wherein he spoke darkly). ‘I have come. Be glad, men of Númenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand.’
And it seemed to men that Sauron was great; though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil. {But they led him to the king, and he was humble before {Tarkalion}[Ar-Pharazôn].}> Now Sauron {and} looked upon the land of Númenor, and on the city of Armenelos in the days of its glory, and he was astounded; but his heart within was filled the more with envy and hate.

I removed the bit about the King's command since he is in the fleet. I only had some of the ships cast up since we are told there are many many ships and I think if all were cast up it would have been remarked on. I think this is also important since it allows us to show the name that Sauron used in Numenor: Tar-Mairon. We mentioned in our Valaquenta that he used this name, and here is the only place we can show it.

AK-HA-12: I fixed up the use of you/thou. Most of the later uses of 'you' are in the plural sense referring to Elendil and his sons, so I left them as 'you'. I moved the editing marker earlier to accommodate some other changes:

... Manwë himself, if may be, and beseech his aid ere all is lost.'
AK-HA-12 '{Would you}[Wouldst thou] then betray the King?' said Elendil. 'For {you know}[thou knowest] well the charge that they make against us, that we are traitors and spies, and that until this day it has been false.'
'If I thought that Manwë needed such a messenger,' said Amandil, I would betray the King. For there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved in heart for any cause. But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful. And as for the Ban, I will suffer in myself the penalty, lest all my people should become guilty.'
'But what think {you}[thou], my father, is like to befall those of {your}[thy] house whom {you leave}[thou leavest] behind, when {your}[thy] deed becomes known?'
'It must not become known,' said Amandil. 'I will prepare my going in secret, and I will set sail into the east, whither daily the ships depart from our havens; and thereafter, as wind and chance may allow, I will go about, through south or north, back into the west, and seek what I may find. But for {you}[thou] and {your}[thy] folk, my son, I counsel that you should prepare yourselves ....

AK-SL-09: Here is my biggest point to make about the Lost Road addition. They would not be speaking Quenya, since we have made a big deal of the fact that it was outlawed. They certainly would not speak it out in the open. We know from the discussion later on in the story that the situation in this older version is different, and Sauron was only just then trying to bring back the old speech of Men. But of course in the newer version, the speech of Men never died out, and the Elvish speeches are outlawed. Therefore, there are many things that need to be changed throughout the addition. Firstly, what I will call AK-SL-09.5 is thus:

At length there was an answering call: a young voice very clear came from some distance away - like a bell out of a deep cave.
AK-SL-09.5 {'Man-ie, atto, man-ie?'}[What is it father, what is it?]
For a brief moment it seemed to {Elendil}[Isildur] that the words were strange. '{Man-ie, atto?} What is it, father?' Then the feeling passed.

Later on we have this instance of the children giving Elendur a nickname in elvish, which would not happen:

... We hold that we are of the blood of kings, but I tell thee thy friends' sons make a jest of me and call me AK-SL-09.7 {Terendul (4) -} slender and dark; ...

They would give him a name in Adûnaic, but I think to create such a name in Adûnaic would be too much liberty on our part, so I simply think we should leave it out.

AK-SL-10: This is fine, but following it are more changes needed due to the illegality of Elvish. Firstly this is a general change in the chapter. The original text has 'Tarkalion' throughout, and Fin changed it to 'Tar-Calion.' However, he would certainly never be known by his Elvish name, and thus should always be referred to as 'Ar-Pharazôn'. I call this first occurrence AK-SL-10.1. Later on, we have Elendur give him a title in Quenya:

... We would make our king Lord of the West: AK-SL-10.2 {Nuaran Númenóren}[Adûnakhôr] {(9)}.

As opposed to the 'Terendul' change, where I removed it due to there being no Adunaic equivalent, in this case we do have one. 'Lord of the West' is the tranlation of Ar-Adûnakhôr's title earlier on, so I think it is safe to use it now.

AK-SL-12: This is a small grammatical change. The change should be "{but four}[less than two twelves]". 'Than' is for comparison, 'then' is for progression.

AK-SL-13: This is fine, but some more Elvish changes:

... I fear the dungeons. And I love thee, I love thee. AK-SL-13.1 {Atarinya tye-meláne.}'
AK-SL-13.2 {Atarinya tye-meláne, my}My father, I love thee: the words sounded strange, but sweet: they smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart. 'AK-SL-13.3 {A yonya inye tye-méla: and}And I too, my son, I love thee,' he said, ...

AK-SL-14: This is where I will make an exception. She is singing an already forbidden song, and I think to divorce it of its Elvish lyrics is to take away from the impact of her singing it out loud. Its an act of defiance, and the defiance of the act is only increased by the fact that Elvish is illegal. However, we are faced with another different problem. This elvish is not at all 'correct' in terms of LotR-style Quenya. We must then decide: Are we saying that in our version Quenya changed drastically from the time of Numenor to the end of the Third Age (which would mean leaving the poem as-is)? Or are we saying that it did not change (meaning we must update the elvish)? I am inclined to the latter, simply because we are told that Quenya changed very little over the years since it was a tongue of lore and books, and not a language spoken, similar to Latin. Therefore I think we should update the Quenya to fit a LotR-era correctness. This may seem like a daunting task, but have no fear! Noted Tolkien linguist and one of the foremost scholars of Neo-quenya Helge K. Fauskanger made an updated version of the poem. If Fin agrees that we should update the poem, then I will post the proposed draft edits (I will wait till he agrees in order to save some space). If this is agreed, then the references in the paragraphs to the lines from the song will need to be changed as well. Here is the link to his translation if you wish to peruse it yourself (it is at the very bottom of the page).

AK-SL-14.1: I made a separate marker for this, but in the english translation of the song is the first occurrence of the name 'Alkar' for Melkor. I think we must change all these to Melkor, since the name is a fleeting idea of Tolkien's which he later rejected. CT says as much himself. The name occurs nowhere outside this text and makes no sense with everything else in the established canon.

AK-SL-14.2: A little further on, there is a footnote after hón-maren. However, this footnote is not needed, since the definition of the word is given right in the body of the text. The footnote is merely CT referencing the relevant section of the etymologies. Therefore I say we remove the footnote entirely.

AK-14.3: At the end of the first paragraph of Isildur's historical tale, there is an innacuracy:

... and they gave battle to him in the North, and they AK-SL-14.3 {bound}[imprisoned] him, and the World had peace and grew exceeding fair.

In our version he was not bound, so this must change.

AK-SL-15.1: This has no marker so I am giving it one. In the paragraph after AK-SL-15 there is an occurrence of 'Avallon' to refer to Eressea. This was an older idea of Tolkien's that he rejected, relegating Avallon to Avalone, a specific haven in Eressea. Therefore it should be changed thus:

'And they recalled the Exiles of the Firstborn and pardoned them; and such as returned dwell since in bliss in Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, which is AK-SL-15.1 {Avallon, for it is} within sight of Valinor and the light of the Blessed Realm.

There is one more occurrence later on:

... and ruin (if he might) AK-SL-15.2 {Avallon}[Eressëa] and Valinor.

AK-SL-22: I think we should remove more, since we should include the full version earlier. Thus these must also be removed:

{[And Sauron came and said:] "I have come. Be glad, men of Númenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand."
'And it seemed to men that Sauron was great; though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil. But they led him to the king, and he was humble before {Tarkalion}[Tar-Calion].}

AK-SL-23 through 28: These edits I disagree with for several reasons. 1) There was most certainly prayer in Numenor. Earlier we described the fact that three times a year the king presides over a public prayer to Eru, and just a few pages ago Firiel sang a religious hymn to Eru. Therefore we cannot say that there is no prayer or religion in Numenor, when there certainly is. 2) The other edits often contain things that dont apply (like saying a hull in the city has been stripped of trees when there would be no trees in the city for them to strip). I propose changing it thus:

'We had no temples. But now AK-SL-23 {the Mountain}[Armenelos] is despoiled AK-SL-24 {. It trees are felled, and it stands naked; and upon its summit}, and in the city there is a Temple. It is of marble, and of AK-SL-26 {gold}[silver], and of glass and steel, and is wonderful, but terrible. No man prayeth there. It waiteth. For long Sauron did not name his master by the name that from old is accursed here. He spoke at first of the Strong One, of the Eldest Power, of the Master. But now he speaketh openly of {Alkar}[Melkor], of Morgoth. He hath prophesied his return. The Temple is to be his house. Númenor is to be the seat of the world's dominion. Meanwhile Sauron dwelleth there. He surveys our land from the AK-SL-28{Mountain}[Temple], and is risen above the king, even proud {Tarkalion}[Ar-Pharazôn], of the line chosen by the Lords, the seed of {Earendel}[Eärendil].

This is much smoother, and contains no contradictions (as far as I can tell).

AK-SL-28.1: This is the discussion of the languages used by Sauron. It needs severe updating. I ended up having to remove most of it, since it no longer applied:

'Yea: that one learneth day by day,' said {Herendil}[Elendur]. 'But some of the new songs are strong and heartening. AK-SL-28.1 {Yet now I hear that some counsel us to abandon the old tongue. They say we should leave Eressëan, and revive the ancestral speech of Men. Sauron teacheth it. In this at least I think he doth not well.}'
'Sauron deceiveth us {doubly}. {For men learned speech of the Firstborn, and therefore if we should verily go back to the beginnings we should find not the broken dialects of the wild men, nor the simple speech of our fathers, but a tongue of the Firstborn. But the Eressëan is of all the tongues of the Firstborn the fairest, and they use it in converse with the Lords, and it linketh their varied kindreds one to another, and them to us. If we forsake it, we should be sundered from them, and be impoverished. Doubtless that is what he intendeth. But there}There is no end to his malice. Listen now, {Herendil}[Elendur], and mark well. The time is nigh when all this evil shall bear bitter fruit, if it be not cut down. Shall we wait until the fruit be ripe, or hew the tree and cast it into the fire?'

Some cannot now counsel them to abandon the old tongue, since it is already illegal. The ancestral speech of Men (Adunaic) cannot be revived, since it is already the common tongue of Numenor. Therefore, the entire discussion on these points is moot and no longer applies.

AK-SL-30: This is a shaky addition I found, and it may very well be impossible. I figured I would bring it up and discuss if it should be included:

... weary at last to the place of their beginning; and they said:
'All roads are now bent.'
AK-SL-30 <Fall of Númenor Yet it is said that even of those Númenóreans of old who had the straight vision there were some who did not comprehend this, and they were busy to contrive ships that should rise above the waters of the world and hold to the imagined seas. But they achieved only ships that would sail in the air of breath. And these ships, flying, came also to the lands of the new world, and to the East of the old world; and they reported that the world was round. Therefore many abandoned the {gods}[Valar] and put them out of their legends. But men of Middle-Earth looked up with fear and wonder seeing the Númenóreans that descended out of the sky; and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Númenóreans were content that this should be so.>
Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, ....

Phew! That was a long post. Hopefully the discussion will be relatively painless, but perhaps not. There were many points raised. Once again, however, an excellent chapter by Fin! We only have one more after this until we have completed the first review of the entire Second Age!

[gondowe]

Only a fast thing. I know Alkar only appears in this text (or at least in this period of time, I think, I think remembering), but in my opinion could be used as an alternative name of Melkor in Númenor. Well...
And in my opinion the matter of the "flying ships" doesn't work, it should have been developed by the professor better.
I agree with Arcuscalion on the inclusion of the arrival of Sauron in that way.
Greetings

[Findegil]

BY-HL-16: I agree to ArcusCalions argument. So we will change the title.

AK-HA-01: Okay, I forgot to mention the things that I did not develop back to the original text. But in this case their was only a remark about an earlier version.

AK-HA-03: As far as I remember, one king was by accident left out of the Appendix A of LotR and Christopher felt bound to this.

AK-SL-02: Agreed.

AK-SL-04: Agreed.

AK-SL-05: Agreed.

AK-SL-06: Agreed. So I like to edit it by splitting the insert and not inserting part of the deleted text.

AK-SL-07: I wanted the reasoning be named. So what about this:

The Elendili alone were not subservient to him, or dared to speak against his wishes, and it became well-known to all in that time that Amandil the Lord of Andúnië was head of their party though not openly declared. Therefore Ar-Pharazon persecuted the Faithful, stripping them of any wealth that they had, and he deprived the heirs of Valandil of their lordshipAK-SL-07b<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text d since they had aided Tar-Palantir and supported his daughter.>. Andunie he took then and made it a chief haven for the king's ship-building, and Amandil who was now the Lord he commanded to move and dwell also in Romenna. Yet he did not otherwise molest him {[?} at this time{]}, nor dismiss him from the Council of the Sceptre, because he remembered still in his heart their friendship of old; and Amandil was well beloved also by many who were not of the Elendili.>

AK-HA-09: I left here the text as in Sil77. Christopher Tolkien writes to this passage:

In the second sentence I altered the original text 'Umbar, where there was a mighty haven that no hand had wrought' to 'Umbar, where was the mighty haven of the Numenoreans that no hand had wrought', in view of Appendix B, Second Age 2280: 'Umbar is made into a great fortress of Numenor' (nearly a thousand years before the coming of Ar-Pharazon). For the same reason I changed the original text in the following sentence, from 'Empty and silent under the sickle moon was the land when the King of the Sea set foot upon the shore' to 'Empty and silent were all the lands about when the King of the Sea marched upon Middle-earth'. (It is probable that when my father wrote this he did not yet suppose that Umbar was a Numenorean fortress and harbour at the time of Ar-Pharazon's landing.)

AK-SL-08: Okay, if both of you think that scene is valid, we will keep it, so I have some doubts.
But to the use of ‘Tar-marion’ at this place I don’t agree. We might add it earlier when we speak about the things that the Númenoreans hear about Sauron. But in Númenor Sauron was never king, so the prefix ‘Tar-‘ is not appropriate. I think we should use ‘Marion’.

AK-HA-12: I don’t think this is right. Tolkien wanted to make a difference between father addressing the son and son addressing the father.

AK-SL-09: Is it not a bit inconsistent to include ‘Tar-marion’ but remove the Quenya from the speech of Isildur and Elendur? But however we are after the restoration of Tar-Palantir, so it might be that it was not before Sauron convinced Pharazôns to attack Valinor, that Quenya was again forbidden.

AK-SL-12: Agreed.

AK-SL-14: I agree that we should update the Quenya.

AK-SL-14.1: I have to think a bit more about this. It is not impossible to use the name in this text only, but you might be right.

AK-SL-14.2: Okay.

AK-SL-14.3: Agreed.

AK-SL-15.1: Agreed.

AK-SL-23 through AK-SL-28: Agreed.

AK-SL-28.1: See above. I think the discussion can more or less stand as it is. The reference might than not be to Andunaic but a some other language that Sauron promotes, that is even farther removed from the elvish influence.

AK-SL-30: Even so it is risky, I like that addition.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-07: Agreed, I like this.

AK-HA-09: Ahh, ok.

AK-SL-08: To the Tar-Mairon question, I see your point. I agree to use Mairon.

AK-HA-12: Hmm this might be difficult then. I will give this more thought.

AK-SL-09: I see that, but Sauron does not yet know the political status of Numenor, and we are told by Tolkien that Sauron referred to himself as Mairon. We therefore cannot use Sauron here, but we may debate if we wish to use the Adunaic name for him: Zigûr (given in the Drowning of Anadune). As to the Elvish, I had forgotten about Tar-Palantir, but I think with Pharazon being a complete continuation of the King's Men and the rule of his father and other anti-elvish peoples, we must assume that he reinstated their policies. It says that Tar-Palantir was the last to support the Faithful, and so I can hardly say that Pharazon would continue to allow the speaking of Quenya.

AK-SL-14: I will then post my proposal for the edit:

Now her voice sang an even-song in the Eressëan tongue, but made by men, long ago. The nightingale ceased. {Elendil}[Isildur] stood still to listen; and the words came to him, far off and strange, as some melody in archaic speech sung sadly in a forgotten twilight in the beginning of man's journey in the world.

AK-SL-13.4 Illu Ilúvatar en {kare}[carnë] Eldain {a firimoin}[ar Fírimain]
ar {antarota}[antanéses] mánnar {Valion}[Valaron]: {numessier}[ëaltë Númessë].....

The Father made the World for elves and mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords, who are in the West.

So sang Fíriel on high, until her voice fell sadly to the question with which that song ends: Man tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar, enyárë {tar i tyel}[i metta pella,] írë Anarinya queluva? What will Ilúvatar, O Ilúvatar, give me in that day beyond the end, when my Sun faileth?’ AK-SL-14 <[Footnote: From Helge’s updated version
Ilu Ilúvatar carnë Eldain ar Fírimain
ar antanéses mánnar Valaron: ëaltë Númessë.
Naltë ainë, mánë ar meldë - hequa morion:
alanties. Melkor Mardello lendë: nás mára.
Carneltë Eldain Isil, Hildoin Úr-anar,
yar nar írimë. Ilyain antaneltë lestanen i annar
Ilúvataro. Ilu ná vanya, fanya, ëari,
i cemen, ar ilya ya ëa taissë. Írima ná Númenor.
Nan lá ëa sérë indonyan sinomë tennoio,
an sinomë ëa tyelma, ar euva metta ar i narquelië,
írë ilya nauva nótina, ar ilya hostaina, i mettassë:
ananta úva tárë fárëa, úfárëa!
Mana tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar
enyárë i metta pella, írë Anarinya queluva?
The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords. They are in the West. They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one. He is fallen. AK-SL-14.1 {Melko}[Melkor] has gone from Earth: it is good. For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun; which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts of Ilúvatar. The World is fair, the sky, the seas, the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Númenor. But my heart resteth not here forever; for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading, when all is counted, and all numbered at last, but yet it will not be enough, not enough. What will the Father, O Father, give me in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?]>
'{E man}[Mana tárë] antuvas? What will he give indeed?' said {Elendil}[Isildur]; and stood in sombre thought.

AK-SL-14.1: In the text it is said to be his original name, but we know that is Melkor. Melkor means 'He who arises in might' and Alkar means 'Radiance'. Tolkien uses Melkor in the story, so we are left with a confusing mess of a history. If Alkar is used, it would only be a name for Melkor given in Numenor, since it occurs nowhere else. However, to give a name to the mortal enemy of the universe, and to name him 'Radiance' seems to me to be impossible. Its use in the story clearly suggests it is meant to be his 'true' name, but we know that can't be true. Therefore, I think we must remove it.

AK-SL-28.1: This, for me, is impossible. The 'ancestral speech of Men' clearly means Adunaic, and to have it refer to some (hitherto unmentioned) speech seems to me to be a great liberty taken, and not to be what Tolkien intended. In this older story the situation is clearly different. In this version, there had been far fewer kings of Numenor, and Tarkalion was the first evil king. Therefore all the anti-elvish sentiment was still new and the languages of Men were unused and forgotten. However, in the newer version this is simply not true, and the Adunaic is spoken by the vast majority of Numenoreans as a daily speech. In fact, the use of Adunaic instead of elvish is seen as a sign of the King's Men, (since they took their regnal names in Adunaic) and so to revive some other unknown language would go counter to their goals and culture all along. Therefore I feel very strongly that we cannot use this discussion, due to its outdated and in-applicable nature.

AK-SL-30: Gondowe expressed his concerns for this addition, but to me saying 'it should have been more developed' is not a reason for excluding something. We need a contradiction or an impossibility in order to get rid of something, and as this is new information not found elsewhere, I think it is worth including.

[gondowe]

What I wanted to mean is that it comes from a text older than the Akallabeth, not retaken later. And such remarkable "technology" must appear or have notice of that even in the Third Age, and that not happens, it is not "developed" so it seems very rare to have this paragraph here and then, what...? (IMHO).
As for Alkar I still think that is valid because we are agreed that this legends are mannish and it cuold be a name taken by the Numenoreans (or some of them) as an alternative name for the Ainu in his orinal form, but nevertheless it is not so important for the story itself.
Greetings

[Findegil]

AK-SL-09: Hmm, yes Pharazôns reverted the restoration of Palantir as soon as he had married Míriel. But that in the house of the lords of Andunië the knowledge of Quenya was maintained can not be doubted. And we have here Isildur one of the Leaders of the Faithful, raised during the restoration period and his son being one a secret visit in their own old home in an area of the land that must have been rather empty after the Faithfull had to move to Rómenna. Why shouldn’t they speak Quenya on such an occasion?

AK-SL-16.5: About Saurons name: I agree to use Mairon in AK-SL-09, but probably we should mention Zigûr as well. It is translated ‘wizard’. And therefore probably not suitable for Sauron to use it for himself. But we could add it in here;

'There were no temples in this land. But on the Mountain we spoke to the One, who hath no image. It was a holy place, untouched by mortal art. Then Sauron came. We had long heard rumour of him from seamen returned from the East. The tales differed: some said he was a king greater than the king of Númenor; some said that he was one of the Powers, or their offspring set to govern Middle-earth. A few reported that he was an evil spirit, perchance Morgoth returned; but at these we laughed.{(21)} AK-SL16.5<The Drowning of Anadune And this evil thing was called by many names, but {the Eruhil named him Sauron, and }men of Middle-earth (when they dared to speak his name at all) named him mostly Zigur the Great.>
'It seems that rumour came also to him of us. …

AK-SL-09.7: About the names Almariel and Terendul: Elendur says that he is called that by ‘the sons of the friends of his father’. As things stand in Númenor at this time I would be sure that the friends of Isildur would nearly all be of the Faithfull themselves, so that neither an original name of Almariel nor a nickname Terendul seem fully impossible. Especially a nickname given in such a circle of young adults with a background of ‘rebellious’ parents, that will anyhow in any time and any society not much care about official interdictions, seems very probable to me.

AK-SL10.1: General change {Tarkalion}[Ar-Pharazôns]: Agreed.

AK-SL-10.2: Here I think we have simply to remove Nuaran Númenóren. I think we can not use Adûnakhôr as that was the title of one of Pharazôns ancestors, an d I don’t think it would have been reused.

AK-SL-13.4 & AK-SL-14: Okay, the version of Helge should be okay. I agree as well that in this special case Alkar should be replaced by Melkor in the Text of the poem and in the translation.

AK-SL-14.1: ‘Alkar the Radiant’ reminded me of the following passages, One from Myths Transformed, Text II:

… And in his thought which deceived him, for the liar shall lie unto himself, he [Melkor] believed that over the Children he might hold absolute sway and be unto them sole lord and master, as he could not be to spirits of his own kind, however subservient to himself. For they knew that the One Is, and must assent to Melkor's rebellion of their own choice; whereas he purposed to withhold from the Children this knowledge and be for ever a shadow between them and the light.
As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look; therefore to know of aught else or beyond or even to strain their small minds to conceive of it would not be for their good.' But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself.

And the second from The Tale of Adanel:

Then he [Melkor] went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.

Therefore the association of Alkar in my mind was directly to the original name of the chosen Master of the first Fall of Men, which fits the story of the Fall of Númenor very well.

AK-SL-28.1: I agree that the discussion cannot stand as it is, but I would try to remove only the contradiction:

'Yea: that one learneth day by day,' said {Herendil}[Elendur]. 'But some of the new songs are strong and heartening. Yet now AK-SL-28.1b<editorial addition the Elvish tongues are again forbidden. And >I hear that {some counsel us to abandon the old tongue. They say we should leave Eressëan, and revive the ancestral speech of Men.} Sauron {teacheth it}<editorial addition supports this>. In this at least I think he doth not well.'
'Sauron deceiveth us{ doubly. For men learned speech of the Firstborn, and therefore if we should verily go back to the beginnings we should find not the broken dialects of the wild men, nor the simple speech of our fathers, but a tongue of the Firstborn. But the}. The Eressëan is of all the tongues of the Firstborn the fairest, and they use it in converse with the Lords, and it linketh their varied kindreds one to another, and them to us. If we forsake it, we should be sundered from them, and be impoverished.{(27)} Doubtless that is what he intendeth. But there is no end to his malice. Listen now, {Herendil}[Elendur], and mark well. The time is nigh when all this evil shall bear bitter fruit, if it be not cut down. Shall we wait until the fruit be ripe, or hew the tree and cast it into the fire?'

AK-SL-30: gondowe, I see your point. But this last paragraph of the Akallabêth is in all its parts ‘prophetic’ or ‘anachronistic’, looking into a far future from the time of the Downfall. Neither the discovery of the new lands in the west that did know death as well as the old lands nor the discovery of the fact that the earth was round were ever mentioned in any narrative of the Third Age. Therefore all these events could have been still in the future at the time of Bilbo and Frodo or Saelon of The New Shadow for that matter. So a development of aircrafts (as is clearly described in this passage) is possibly as well in the future. And that flight pioneers, when they came down amid ‘wild people’ where not always unhappy to be held in awe is for sure witnessed in our own real history and used as a motive in many tales (e.g. C-3PO and his friends among the Ewoks in ‘The Return of the Jedi’).

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-09: I think a lot of the point of this story is that Elendur is much less knowledgable of the Faithful and how deep his family is into it. So I think he would not be speaking Quenya so openly. Also, later on, he is very scared that Sauron's servants will hear his father speaking ill of Sauron, and urges him to stop talking. If he thought they were being watched so closely, he would not speak Quenya out in the open.

AK-SL-16.5: Agreed, I like this very much!

AK-SL-09.7: This is actually a very good point, and so I will agree to leave it.

AK-SL-10.2: Agreed

AK-SL-14.1: This seems to me to be a very risky thing to leave, but I suppose I cannot find reasons in our rules to change it, and so I suppose we can leave it in. However, I think we must equate Alkar with Melkor, since the first occurrence of the name is not explained. I think we should do it like this:

'There{(15)} is Ilúvatar, the One; and there are the Powers, of whom the eldest in the thought of Ilúvatar was AK-SL-14.25 <editorial addition Melkor, who of old we named> Alkar the Radiant;{(16)}

This way it makes it clear that the name is specific to Men, and clarifies that it is a name of Melkor.

AK-SL-28.1: Agreed, this works.

AK-SL-30: This is very very true.