Akallabêth

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-09: I think a lot of the point of this story is that Elendur is much less knowledgable of the Faithful and how deep his family is into it. So I think he would not be speaking Quenya so openly. Also, later on, he is very scared that Sauron's servants will hear his father speaking ill of Sauron, and urges him to stop talking. If he thought they were being watched so closely, he would not speak Quenya out in the open.

AK-SL-16.5: Agreed, I like this very much!

AK-SL-09.7: This is actually a very good point, and so I will agree to leave it.

AK-SL-10.2: Agreed

AK-SL-14.1: This seems to me to be a very risky thing to leave, but I suppose I cannot find reasons in our rules to change it, and so I suppose we can leave it in. However, I think we must equate Alkar with Melkor, since the first occurrence of the name is not explained. I think we should do it like this:

'There{(15)} is Ilúvatar, the One; and there are the Powers, of whom the eldest in the thought of Ilúvatar was AK-SL-14.25 <editorial addition Melkor, who of old we named> Alkar the Radiant;{(16)}

This way it makes it clear that the name is specific to Men, and clarifies that it is a name of Melkor.

AK-SL-28.1: Agreed, this works.

AK-SL-30: This is very very true.

[gondowe]

Findegil wrote.
AK-SL-30: gondowe, I see your point. But this last paragraph of the Akallabêth is in all its parts ‘prophetic’ or ‘anachronistic’, looking into a far future from the time of the Downfall. Neither the discovery of the new lands in the west that did know death as well as the old lands nor the discovery of the fact that the earth was round were ever mentioned in any narrative of the Third Age. Therefore all these events could have been still in the future at the time of Bilbo and Frodo or Saelon of The New Shadow for that matter. So a development of aircrafts (as is clearly described in this passage) is possibly as well in the future. And that flight pioneers, when they came down amid ‘wild people’ where not always unhappy to be held in awe is for sure witnessed in our own real history and used as a motive in many tales (e.g. C-3PO and his friends among the Ewoks in ‘The Return of the Jedi’).

Yes, I also can see your point, and is something I thought when I faced this paragraph at first time.

But, although this could be again a misunderstanding from me of the English text, I thought and I think that, at least as the text is presented, that point of view is erroneous.
In the later Akallabeth is stated that the Númenoreans knew of the new round world (I suppose simply by the conventional sailing).
In the LOTR is implicit this round world (not said with all the words but implicit), The Eldar and the Dunedain knew it.

The "Númenoreans of old" in my opinion shouldn't be Númenoreans of the fifth or later ages, to say.
But (again with no certain security cause I have not my texts with me, I beg you pardon if I'm mistaken) I think the later Akallabeth have many passages taken directly of this version, and possibly is a fact that the same professor didn't liked this flying ships and rejected them. I don't know.

Greetings

[Findegil]

AK.SL-14.1: Okay, but must it not be ‚whom of old we named‘?

AK-SL-09: Okay, probably you are right and the removal of the Quenya is the safer way to go. I will go through each single change not yet agreed upon:

AK-SL-09.5: I think we have to remove with the Quenya the strange feeling of Isildur:

At length there was an answering call: a young voice very clear came from some distance away - like a bell out of a deep cave.
'{Man-ie, atto, man-ie?'
For a brief moment it seemed to {Elendil}[Isildur] that the words were strange. 'Man-ie, atto? }What is it, father?'{ Then the feeling passed.}
'Where art thou?'

AK-SL-13.1 to AK-SL-13.35: Again I think with the Quenya the strangeness of Isildurs feeling has to go:

… I fear the dungeons. And I love thee, I love thee. AK-SL-13.1{Atarinya tye-meláne.}'
AK-SL-13.2{Atarinya tye-meláne, my father, }I love thee: the words AK-SL-13.25{ sounded strange, but sweet: they} smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart. 'AK-SL-13.3{A yonya inye tye-méla: and}And I too, my son, I love thee,' he said, feeling each syllable AK-SL-13.35{strange but }vivid as he spoke it. …

AK-SL-29.5: Right at the end of the Lost Road material Elendur does again use the Quenya phrase, and since we are now behind closed doors and in a very intimate setting we seem to agree that we would let this stand. If that is so, I think we should use part of what we have skipped in AK-SL-13.2 to AK-SL-13.25:

… Wilt thou stay?'
'Atarinya tye-meláne' said {Herendil}[Elendur] suddenly, and clasping his father's knees he laid his {[?}head there{]} and wept. AK-SL-29.5<editorial addition moved from above Atarinya tye-meláne, my father, I love thee: the words sounded strange, but sweet: they smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart. >'It is an evil hour that {[?}putteth{]} such a choice on thee,' said {his father}he, laying a hand on his sons head. 'But fate calleth some to be men betimes. What dost thou say?'

AK-SL-30: Yes, it is a possibility that JRR Tolkien rejected this passage intentionally. And if we want to go on the safe side, we should remove it.
But I do not share your impression that the passage in the later Akallabêth refers to a time immediately after the Downfall. Even so I agree that in LotR the Round world might be implied (but for sure not very explicit), that does not mean much, since it could refer to the Myths Transformed cosmology where the world was round from the start. But since we rejected this (for this project), we would not be bound to it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-14.1: I think you're right.

AK-SL-09.5: Agreed

AK-SL-13.1 to 13.35: Agreed

AK-SL-29.5: Agreed, but I think we need to slightly update the Quenya. It should be: Atarinya tyë-melinyë

[Findegil]

AK-SL-29.5: Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

AK-SL-30: Yes, it is a possibility that JRR Tolkien rejected this passage intentionally. And if we want to go on the safe side, we should remove it.
But I do not share your impression that the passage in the later Akallabêth refers to a time immediately after the Downfall. Even so I agree that in LotR the Round world might be implied (but for sure not very explicit), that does not mean much, since it could refer to the Myths Transformed cosmology where the world was round from the start. But since we rejected this (for this project), we would not be bound to it.

Sorry to bring up again this.
It´s only to show that for me this passage of Akallabeth:

Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and star-craft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed made round, and yet the Eldar were permitted still to depart and to come to the Ancient West and to Avallónë, if they would. Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it.

refers to a period where still depart Eldar and I think this must be at least so later than the Fourth Age. (In my humble opinion)

Greetings

[Findegil]

gondowe wrote:

refers to a period where still depart Eldar and I think this must be at least so later than the Fourth Age. (In my humble opinion)

Very true, but still this is in the far future at the time that the narative has reached. And it is in my oppinion not necessary so that all events that are mentioned must be at the same time.

Anyhow to develop the idea of aircrafts to follow the straight road one has to understand that the ocean is bent along the round surface of the world. Thus the aircrafts are later then the knowledge of the round world fact.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

AK-SL-29.5: Agreed, but I think we need to slightly update the Quenya. It should be: Atarinya tyë-melinyë

Slightly off-topic, but I'm curious what the LOTR-era Quenya would be for the earlier phrases that aren't being used?

• Man-ie, atto, man-ie?’
• A yonya inye tye-méla