The Last Alliance

[ArcusCalion]

Gondowe, the Tale of years of the Third Age says this:

Throughout the Third Age the guardianship of the Three Rings was known only to those who possessed them. But at the end it became known that they had been held at first by the three greatest of the Eldar: Gil-galad. Galadriel and Círdan. Gil-galad before he died gave his ring to Elrond; Círdan later surrendered his to Mithrandir.

This note is very unspecific, and makes no mention of the exact order of time in which the rings were distributed. Therefore I think there is no actual contradiction, and instead there is only detail lost due to compression.

[gondowe]

But I think at least CT thought Cirdan had owned it from the beginning , is said by him in some book, possibly UT. Nevertheless it is more factible that one ring-->one elf. And of course this will fix that Mithrandir would come to ME at TA. (Don't know if you reached a conclusion about that matter)
Greetings

[ArcusCalion]

I am confused as to what you are proposing. In all the documents that give details about the transmission of ownership of the rings, two were given to Gil-galad, and he distributed them to Elrond and Cirdan. This is in Of the Rings of Power and The History of Galadriel and Celeborn. The only text that says it was given directly to Cirdan is the VERY brief snippet in the Tale of Years of the Third Age, which is so compressed as to be barely a source of historical movement. I see no argument to give the ring to Cirdan directly, as this would go against all the source texts. As to the time of Gandalf's landing, there is also no debate. All the texts say that Gandalf, Saruman, and Radgast came during the Third Age around the time when the Shadow first came upon Mirkwood. Therefore there is also no reason to change or debate this. I included this event in my drafts for the Third Age, with some slight editing to reflect the new change that the two Blue Wizards came earlier in the Second Age.

[gondowe]

I'm not proposing anything.
I only say that "they had been held at first", was for me meant that Cirdan had Narya from the beginning (given by Gil-galad at the beginning as is stated in CGaC, despite the other note that says he gave him in the Last Alliance) of course it is, I think, a later note, but if the sentence in TLotR was, as I believed it was, would be definitive for have been published by the author.
In my text is said that Celebrimbor gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-galad and Gil-galad gave Narya to Cirdan at the beginning (not in TLast Alliance period).
Greetings

[gondowe]

I have downloaded a UT book (digital) to check, and in the note 11 of THoGaC, CT says:

Earlier in this narrative (p.249) it is said that Gil-galad gave Narya, the Red Ring, to Círdan as soon as he himself received it from Celebrimbor, and this agrees with the statements in Appendix B to The Lord of the Rings and in Of the Rings of Power, that Círdan held it from the beginning. The statement here, at variance with the others, was added in the margin of the text.

I think this is why I thought what I am saying, for the published text.
Greetings

[Findegil]

BY-HL-20: Yes, that is agreed, sorry for not being clear about this at once.

LA-SL-01: Okay, that is a better start. Agreed.

LA-SL-08: Good to have you discussing with us gondowe! I think that you are right. The statement in LotR, Appendix B is not so unspecifc, in my oppinion. Specially if taken together with the first version of Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn it makes the use of the later nearly note impossible. I suggest therefore to change in this chapter to skip L-SL-08 but add the following:

LA-SL-15<LotR, Book II, Chapter 2 <on the slopes of Orodruin.>{He}Isildur alone stood by his father in that last mortal contest; and by Gil-galad only Círdan stood, and {I}Elrond.><Gil-galad died> by< the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed;>{, and they both were slain}, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. LA-SL-15.5<LotR, Appendix B Gil-galad before he died gave his Ring to Elrond. >But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own. ...

And to change in the chapter Of the Rings of Power in this way:

... Celebrimbor followed her counsel that the Ring of Air and the Ring of Fire should be sent out of Eregion; and he entrusted them to Gil-galad in Lindon. RP-SL-09b{ (It is said here that at this time} Gil galad gave Narya, the Red Ring, to Círdan Lord of the Havens.{, but later in the narrative there is a marginal note that he kept it himself until he set out for the War of the Last Alliance.)} RP-SL-10 <LotR, Appendix A III It was believed by the Dwarves of Durin's Folk ...
...
...
...
RP-SL-22<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn At this time the first RP-SL-23<The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, note 10 White >Council was held, RP-SL-24{10} and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than in Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad RP-SL-24.5{gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and }appointed {him}Elrond to be his vice-regent in Eriador. RP-SL-25b{; but the Red Ring he kept, until he gave it to Círdan when he set out from Lindon in the days of the Last Alliance.11} For many years the Westlands had peace, ...

If the remark in Appendix B is not taken as a cleary ststement that Gil-galad held Vilya until his death, but rather is read as 'at some unspecific time before his death', than we can leave LA-SL-08 as it was and leave out RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5.

LA-SL-09: I can understand your concerns and I am not adamant on this addition. If you really think it superficial we can let it out.

LA-SL-12: Oops, Malgalad to Amdír was a late change from ‘private Draft’ to ‘Draft’ in the earlier chapters and I missed to make it through out.

LA-SL-13: The description of the War is already week. I think that this recapture of Minas Ithil is an essential part of the War strategy of the West. But you might of course be right that we will miss this passage dearly in the next chapter. I suppose we leave this point undecided until we have the full picture in both chapters and then chose were to use this passage.

LA-SL-16: It is always a bit difficult to place a chapter break when working only on one side of it. So I for the moment agree to place this in the next chapter. If when discussing this I feel that it would better be move we can easily re-open this point.

LA-SL-17: Yes, when used in the next chapter this sentence is superficial. I used it because I was unwilling to state that Isildur moved to Minas Anor next, which is what followed in The Rings of Power.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

LA-SL-08: I think the second option is best. Personally I think 'before he died' is not specific, and so we should simply leave the text as it is, and not include RP-SL-24.5 and LA-SL-15.5.

LA-SL-09: I think it is safer to leave it out.

LA-SL-13/16/17: This is fair. We can re-open discussion on these points later if you find the next chapter inadequate.

I think with that we have reached the end of the first round of edits on the entirety of the Second Age material! That's incredible, especially considering the unfinished and uncertain state of most of the Second Age events, and I think we have made an incredible narrative out of some very difficult source material! I'll try to prep the first Fading Years chapter for tomorrow.