The Stewards

[Findegil]

Okay, I agree to the changes so far. The chapter The Tale of Agarorn and Arwen looks fine for me. What follows is my draft for the inclusion of the The Quest to Erebor material. I will give it in full even so TS-SL-01 & TS-SL-02 are unchanged, but I would like to change the structure a bit as well. I think we should puch TS-SL-01 & TS-SL-02 into the chapter Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire, It does not fit their well, but better than in a chapter named The Quest of Erebor as this one should benamed know. As I would like to use that title here I would suggest to rename the earlier chapter Sauron Defeated to The Last Alliance.

FY-HL-14<
Concerning Gandalf, Saruman, and the Shire
>…
…
…
… and deeming that this was but part of the watch upon the Enemy.>
TS-SL-01b<Appendix A When Belecthor II, the twenty-first Steward, … for no seedling could be found.
In the days of Túrin II … high upon the shore of the river, and the enemies of Gondor feared to pass it.>TS-SL-02b<Appendix A Túrin II of Gondor sent to Folcwine a rich weregild of gold.>FY-HL-14.2<
The Quest of Erebor
>FY-HL-14.4<
A Well-Planned Party
>TS-QE-01<Quest of Erebor; Appendix Gandalf had not yet played any part in the fortunes of Durin's House. … and rested for the night at Bree.>TS-QE-02<The Quest of Erebor {I cannot remember all the tale now, but we gathered that to begin with }Gandalf was thinking only of the defence of the West against the Shadow. TS-QE-03{
}"I {was}am very troubled{ at that time}," he {said}thought, "for Saruman {was}is hindering all my plans. I knew that Sauron had arisen again and {would}will soon declare himself, and I knew that he was preparing for a great war. How {would}will he begin? {would}Will he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or {would}will he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? I {thought then, and I am sure now,}think that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he {was}is strong enough {was}is his original plan. It {would have been}will be a much better plan for him, and much worse for us.
{"}You may think that Rivendell {was}is out of his reach, but I {did not}don’t think so. The state of things in the North {was}is very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale {were}are no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there {were}are only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them {lay}lies a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. {Often I said to myself: '}I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.{'}"
{"Those were my dark thoughts as I jogged along the road. I}Gandalf was tired, and {I}he was going to the Shire for a short rest, after being away from it for more than twenty years.> TS-QE-04<Quest of Erebor; Appendix And then there was the Shire-folk. {I}He began to have a warm place in {my}his heart for them in the Long Winter TS-QE-05{, which none of you can remember}. They were very hard put to it then … they survived. {I}Gandalf wanted them still to survive. But {I}he saw that the Westlands … To come through that {I}he thought they would need something more than they now had. It is not easy to say what. {Well,}Proberbly they would want to know a bit more, … and where they stood.
{"}They had begun to forget … with some one person. {I dare}Gandalf dared to say, that {he}Bilbo was 'chosen' and {I}that he was only chosen to choose him; {but I}so he I picked out Bilbo.>
TS-QE-06<The Quest of Erebor{I}Gandalf thought that if {I}he put {them}his dark thoughts out of {my}his mind for a while {I}he might perhaps find some way of dealing with these troubles. And so {I did}it happened indeed, though {I}he was not allowed to put them out of my mind.
{"}For just as {I}he was nearing Bree {I}he was overtaken by Thorin Oakenshield, who lived then in exile beyond the north-western borders of the Shire. To {my}Gandalf’s surprise he spoke to {me}him; and it was at that moment that the tide began to turn.
{"He}Thorin was troubled too, so troubled that he actually asked for {my}Gandalf’s advice{.}>: TS-SL-03b<Appendix A 'Master Gandalf, I know you only by sight, …
…
…
…
… and I do not think that he will be forgotten by the grandson of Thrór.'>
TS-QE-07<Quest of Erebor So {I}Gandalf went with {him}Thorin to his halls in the Blue Mountains>. TS-QE-08<Quest of Erebor; Appendix {we}They actually passed through the Shire, though Thorin would not stop long enough for that to be useful. Indeed {I think }it was annoyance with his haughty disregard of the Hobbits that first put into {my}Gandalf’s head the idea of entangling {him}Thorin with them. As far as {he}Thorin was concerned they were just food-growers who happened to work the fields on either side of the Dwarves' ancestral road to the Mountains.>
TS-QE-09<The Quest of Erebor {So I went with him to his halls in the Blue Mountains, and I}Gandalf listened to {his}Thorin’s long tale{.}>: TS-QE-10 The History of the Hobbit; A Well-Planned Party ‘Many years ago, in my great-grandfather’s days, our family was driven out of the far North. Some went to the Iron Hills. But Thror my grandfather returned with most of our kin to {this Mountain on the map}Erebor, where Thrain the old his ancestor had lived for a while, once upon a time. …
…
…
… Dragons{, as no doubt a treasure-hunter will know,} steal gold and jewels from elves and dwarves and men, …
…
…
…
… One day he flew up in the air and came south> TS-QE-11 The Hobbit . The first we heard of it was a noise like a hurricane coming from the North, … but I don't suppose anyone lives nearer to the Mountain than the far edge of the Long Lake now-a-days.
"The few of us that were well outside … that one day in the proper time I should know. After that TS-QE-12 The History of the Hobbit; A Well-Planned Party , when we had set our curse on the dragon,> we went away, and we have had to earn our livings as best we could up and down the lands, often enough sinking as low as blacksmith-work or even coalmining TS-QE-13 The History of the Hobbit; A Well-Planned Party , or even road-mending>. But we have never forgotten our stolen treasure. And even now, when I will allow we have a good bit laid by and are not so badly off" – here Thorin stroked the gold chain round his neck – " TS-QE-14{we still mean to get it back, and to bring our curses home to Smaug – if we can}The History of the Hobbit; A Well-Planned Party I still mean to get it back, and to bring my curse home to Smaug – if I can>."
>TS-QE-15<The Quest of Erebor{I}Gandalf soon understood that {his}Thorin’s heart was hot with brooding on his wrongs, and the loss of the treasure of his forefathers, and burdened too with the duty of revenge upon Smaug that he had inherited. Dwarves take such duties very seriously.> TS-QE-16<The Quest of Erebor, Appendix {I}Gandalf heard all his tale, and {I}he thought: 'Well, here is an enemy of Smaug at any rate! And one worthy of help. I must do what I can. I should have thought of Dwarves before.'>
TS-QE-17<The Quest of Erebor{"I}He promised to help {him}Thorin if {I}he could. {I}He was as eager as {he was}Thorin to see the end of Smaug, but Thorin was all for plans of battle and war, as if he were really King Thorin the Second, and {I}Gandalf could see no hope in that. So {I}he left him and went off to the Shire, and picked up the threads of news. It was a strange business. {I}He did no more than follow the lead of 'chance,' and made many mistakes on the way.>
TS-QE-18<The Quest of Erebor; Appendix "How would you select any one Hobbit for such a purpose?" {said }Gandalf thought. {"I}He had not time to sort them all out; but {I}he knew the Shire very well by that time, although when {I}he met Thorin {I}he had been away for more than twenty years on less pleasant business. So naturally thinking over the Hobbits that {I}he knew, {I}he said to {myself}himself: 'I want a dash of the Took{' (but not too much. Master Peregrin) '}and I want a good foundation of the solider sort, a Baggins perhaps.' That pointed at once to Bilbo.> TS-QE-19<The Quest of Erebor Somehow {I}Gandalf had been attracted by Bilbo long before, as a child, and a young hobbit: he had not quite come of age when {I}Gandalf had last seen him. He had stayed in {my}Gandalf’s mind ever since, with his eagerness and his bright eyes, and his love of tales, and his questions about the wide world outside the Shire. As soon as {I}Gandalf entered the Shire {I}he heard news of {him}Bilbo. He was getting talked about, it seemed. Both his parents had died early for Shire-folk, at about eighty; and he had never married.> TS-QE-20<The Quest of Erebor; Appendix {I}Gandalf thought that odd though {I}he guessed why it was; and the reason that {I}he guessed was not that most of the Hobbits gave {me}him: that {he}Bilbo had early been left very well off and his own master. No, {I}Gandalf guessed that {he}Bilbo wanted to remain 'unattached' for some reason deep down which he did not understand himself – or would not acknowledge, for it alarmed him. He wanted, all the same, to be free to go when the chance came, or he had made up his courage. {I}Gandalf remembered how {he}Bilbo used to pester {me}him with questions when {he}Bilbo was a youngster about the Hobbits that had occasionally 'gone off,' as they said in the Shire. There were at least two of his uncles on the Took side that had done so.[Footnote to the text: These uncles were Hildifons Took, who "went off on a journey and never returned," and Isengar Took (the youngest of the Old Took's twelve children), who was "said to have 'gone off to sea' in his youth".]> TS-QE-21<The Quest of Erebor {He}Bilbo was already growing a bit queer, they said, and went off for days by himself. He could be seen talking to strangers, even Dwarves.
{"}'Even Dwarves!' Suddenly in {my}Gandalf’s mind these three things came together: the great Dragon with his lust, and his keen hearing and scent; the sturdy heavy-booted Dwarves with their old burning grudge; and the quick, soft-footed Hobbit, sick at heart ({I}he guessed) for a sight of the wide world. {I}Gandalf laughed at {myself}himself; but {I}he went off at once to have a look at Bilbo, to see what twenty years bad done to him, and whether he was as promising as gossip seemed to make out. But he was not at home. They shook their heads in Hobbiton when {I}Gandalf asked after him. 'Off again,' said one Hobbit. It was Holman, the gardener{, I believe}[Footnote to the text: Holman the gardener: Holman Greenhand, to whom Hamfast Gamgee (Sam's father, the Gaffer) was apprenticed{: The Fellowship of the Ring, and Appendix C}.]. 'Off again. He'll go right off one of these days, if he isn't careful. Why, I asked him where he was going, and when he would be back, and I don't know he says; and then he looks at me queerly. It depends if I meet any, Holman, he says. It's the Elves New Year tomorrow![Footnote to the text: The Elvish solar year (loa) began with the day called yestarë, which was the day before the first day of tuilë (Spring); and in the Calendar of Imladris yestarë "corresponded more or less with Shire April 6."] A pity, and him so kind a body. You wouldn't find a better from the Downs to the River.'
'Better and better!' {I}Gandalf thought. 'I think I shall risk it.' Time was getting short. {I}He had to be with the White Council in August at the latest, … unless he had something else to deal with.>
TS-QE-22<Quest of Erebor; Appendix At last {I}Gandalf made up {my}his mind, and {I went back to Thorin.} TS-QE-23<The Quest of Erebor{"So I} rode off back to Thorin in haste, … than to find it actually in danger of coming true!> {I}Gandalf found {him}Thorin in conclave with some of his kinsfolk. Balin and Glóin were there, and several others.
{"}'Well, what have you got to say?' Thorin asked {me }as soon as {I}Gandalf came in.
{"}'This first,' {I}Gandalf answered. 'Your own ideas are those of a king, … They will help one another. TS-QE-24{' And they certainly would have done so, if I had not attacked Dol Guldur at the same time. '}Open war would be quite useless; … indeed something desperate.'
{"}'You are both vague and disquieting,' said Thorin. 'Speak more plainly!'
{"}'Well, for one thing,' {I}Gandalf said, 'you will have to go on this quest yourself, … something unexpected.'
{"}'Name it!' said Thorin.
{"}'One moment!' {I}Gandalf said. 'You hope to deal with a Dragon; … and his sense of smell.'
{"}'Naturally,' said Thorin. 'Dwarves have had more dealings with Dragons than most, and you are not instructing the ignorant.'
{"}'Very good,' {I}Gandalf answered; 'but your own plans did not seem to me to consider this point. My plan is one of stealth. Stealth. TS-QE-25<Added back from Manuscript A Also a scent that cannot be placed, at least not by Smaug, the enemy of Dwarves.> Smaug does not lie on his costly bed … prick-eared for the sound of – Dwarf-feet.'
{"}'You make your stealth … Impossibly difficult!'
{"}'Yes, it is difficult,' {I}Gandalf answered. … he has certainly never smelt them.'
{"}'What!' cried Glóin. … the nakedest dragonet new from the shell!'
{"}'Now, now!' {I}Gandalf said, 'that is quite unfair. … before you find out what is in them.'
{"}'The test cannot be made … to avoid tight places.'
{"}'Quite true,' {I}Gandalf said. 'They are a very sensible people. … an adventure.'
{"}'Not at my expense … even if he could be persuaded to start.'
{"}'Fail to see! You would fail to hear it, more likely,' {I}Gandalf answered. … I meant it: professional stealth.'
{"}'Professional stealth?' cried Balin, taking up {my}Gandalf’s words rather differently than {I}he had meant them. 'Do you mean a trained treasure-seeker? Can they still be found?'
{"I}Gandalf hesitated. This was a new turn, and {I}he was not sure how to take it. 'I think so,' {I}he said at last. … and get what you desire.'
{"}Thorin's eyes glistened … and they cannot tell a gem from a bead of glass.'
{"}'I wish you would not always speak so confidently without knowledge,' {I}Gandalf said sharply. … and drinks wine out of shapely crystal.'
{"}'Ah! I see your drift at last,' said Balin. 'He is a thief, then? That is why you recommend him?'
{"}At that {I fear I}Gandalf lost {my}his temper and {my}his caution. … was more than {I}he could stand at that moment. 'A thief?' {I}he said, laughing. … Then being angry {I}he got up, and {I}he said with a warmth that surprised {myself}himself: 'You must look for that door, Thorin Oakenshield! I am serious.' And suddenly {I}Gandalf felt that {I}he was indeed in hot earnest. This queer notion of {mine}him was not a joke, … The Dwarves must bend their stiff necks.
{"}'Listen to me, Durin's Folk!' {I}he cried. … until the Shadow falls on you!'
{"}Thorin turned and looked at {me}Gandalf in astonishment, … if you are not merely crazed.'
{"}'Good!' {I}Gandalf said. … but you must not let him.'
{"}'Haggling will not help him, … and no more.'
{"}It was not what {I}Gandalf meant, but it seemed to him useless to say so. 'There is one other thing,' {I}he went on; … east of your quest.'
{"}'He sounds a very strange creature, this thief of yours,' said a young Dwarf called Fíli (Thorin's nephew{, as I afterwards learned}). 'What is his name, or the one that he uses?'
{"}'Hobbits use their real names,' {I}Gandalf said. 'The only one that he has is Bilbo Baggins.'
{"}'What a name!' said Fíli, and laughed.
{"}'He thinks it very respectable,' {I}Gandalf said. … At least you will be well entertained.'
{"}'That is enough,' said Thorin. … and my heart is hot within me.'
{"I}Gandalf took no notice of this. 'Look now, Thorin,' {I}he said, … Then we will all visit him together on the following day.'
{"}And with that {I}Gandalf took {my}his leave, … The rest of the story is well known TS-QE-26{to you }– from Bilbo's point of view. {If I had written the account, it would have sounded rather different. }He did not know all that went on: the care, for instance, that {I}Gandalf took … should not come to his ears too soon.
{"}It was on the morning of Tuesday, April the 25th, 2941, that {I}Gandalf called to see Bilbo; and though {I}he knew more or less what to expect {I must say that my}his confidence was shaken. {I}He saw that things would be far more difficult than {I}he had thought. But {I}he persevered. Next day, Wednesday, April the 26th, {I}he brought Thorin and his companions to Bag End; … went extremely badly for {me}Gandalf from the beginning; … only made matters worse. {I}Gandalf was thankful that {I}he had told Thorin {we should}they would all stay the night at Bag End, since {we should}they would need time to discuss ways and means. It gave {me}Gandalf a last chance. If Thorin had left Bag End before {I}he could see him alone, {my}Gandalf’s plan would have been ruined.> TS-QE-27<The Quest of Erebor{" So I rode off back to Thorin in haste, to tackle the difficult task of persuading him to put aside his lofty designs and go secretly – and take Bilbo with him. Without seeing Bilbo first. It was a mistake, and nearly proved disastrous. For Bilbo had changed, of course. At least, he was getting rather greedy and fat, and his old desires had dwindled down to a sort of private dream. Nothing could have been more dismaying than to find it actually in danger of coming true! He}Bilbo was altogether bewildered, … which {I }will be mention in a moment.
{"But you know how things went}The story of Thorin’s meeting with Bilbo is told elsewhere, at any rate as Bilbo saw {them}it. The story would sound rather different, if {I}Gandalf had written it. For one thing {he}Bilbo did not realize at all how fatuous the Dwarves thought him, nor how angry they were with {me}Gandalf. Thorin was much more indignant and contemptuous than {he}Bilbo perceived. He was indeed contemptuous from the beginning, and thought then that {I}Gandalf had planned … It was only the map and the key that saved the situation.
{"}But {I}Gandalf had not thought of them for years. It was not until {I}he got to the Shire and had time to reflect on Thorin's tale that {I}he suddenly remembered the strange chance that had put them in {my}his hands; and it began now to look less like chance. {I}He remembered a dangerous journey of {mine}his, ninety-one years before, when {I}he had entered Dol Guldur in disguise, and had found there an unhappy Dwarf dying in the pits. {I}Gandalf had no idea who he was. … he had possessed a great Ring.
{"}Nearly all his ravings were of that. … But he gave the map and the key to {me}Gandalf. 'For my son,' he said; and then he died, and soon after {I}Gandalf escaped {myself}himself. {I}He stowed the things away, and by some warning of {my}his heart {I}he kept them always with {me}him, safe, but soon almost forgotten. {I}Gandalf had other business in Dol Guldur more important and perilous than all the treasure of Erebor.
{"}Now {I}Gandalf remembered it all again, and it seemed clear that {I}he had heard the last words of Thráin the Second,[Footnote to the text: Thráin the Second: Thráin the First, Thorin's distant ancestor, escaped from Moria in the year 1981 and became the first King under the Mountain.] though he did not name himself … the last of the Seven Rings.{'}> TS-QE-28<The Quest of Erebor, Appendix It was nine years after Thrain had left his people that {I}Gandalf found him, and he had then been in the pits of Dol Guldur for five years at least. {I do}Gandalf did not know how {he}Thrain endured so long, nor how he had kept these things hidden through all his torments. {I think that the}The Dark Power had probably desired nothing from him … Small oversights often do.> TS-QE-29<The Quest of Erebor{I}Gandalf had the plan … And {I}he had kept them, though without any design of {my}his own, until the moment when they would prove most useful.
{"}Fortunately, {I}Gandalf did not make any mistake in {my}his use of them. {I}He kept them up {my}his sleeve, as {you say}it is said in the Shire, until things looked quite hopeless. As soon as Thorin saw them he really made up his mind to follow {my}Gandalf’s plan, … to ease his heart's longings.
{"}But that was not enough for {me}Gandalf. {I}Gandalf knew in {my}his heart that Bilbo must go with {him}Thorin, or the whole quest would be a failure – or, as {I}we should say now, the far more important events by the way would not come to pass. So {I}Gandalf had still to persuade Thorin to take him. There were many difficulties on the road afterwards, but for {me}Gandalf this was the most difficult part of the whole affair. Though {I}he argued with {him}Thorin far into the night after Bilbo had retired, it was not finally settled until early the next morning.
{"}Thorin was contemptuous … other purposes than helping me.'
{"}'You are quite right,' {I}Gandalf said. … not less.' {I}He spoke at last with great heat. 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield!' {I}he said. … and I am warning you.'
{"}'I know your fame,' Thorin answered. … may have disordered your wits.'
{"}'They have certainly been enough to do so,' {I}Gandalf said. … though your hands be full of gold.'
{"He}Thorin blenched … as in all that concerns me.'
{"}'Do so then!' {I}Gandalf said. … my friendship to the end of your days.'
{"I}Gandalf said that without hope of persuading {him}Thorin; but {I}he could have said nothing better. … you must come too and look after your darling.'
{"}'Good!' {I}Gandalf answered. … but at the time {I}Gandalf was troubled, for {I}he had the urgent matter of the White Council on {my}his hands.
{"}So it was that the Quest of Erebor set out. {I do}Gandalf did not suppose that when it started Thorin had any real hope of destroying Smaug. There was no hope.> FY-HL-14.6<
The Broken Bridge
>TS-QE-30<LotR; Of the Finding of the Ring As is told in The Hobbit, … beneath Erebor in Dale, far off in the East.>
TS-QE-31<The History of the Hobbit; The Broken Bridge{They} At first they were still in the Shire, of course, and went at a leisurely pace, spending nights in good inns. TS-QE-32<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary /The night of April 28th they/{Spend night} at the All-welcome Inn, … (southern part, in Harlindon). {None of this is mentioned in the text, but The All-welcome Inn should be marked on the needed Shire-map in any new edition of The Hobbit. }It has to be remembered that … in its inns ({It}it would also appear that they were sometimes employed as roadmenders and bridge-repairers), … never haggled, and gave what was asked.>{; not} Not until the Saturday afternoon did {they}Thorin and his companions cross the great bridge … At last he felt that his Adventure had begun.
But beyond the Bridge … but gave them no more than a grin and a nod.
In a day or two … they came to the Last Inn, TS-QE-33{they found it deserted.} <The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary but are depressed at finding it deserted and go no further.> They camped in its ruins, … but it was grey now and rather sad.
Bilbo’s spirit fell, … (so Bilbo thought to himself). TS-QE-34<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary {by}By the evening of May 10th {have}they had only reached Weathertop (80 miles from the Last Inn). They {camp}camped on its east side.>After a time the flat lands began to rise before them; … as if men of evil days had built them.
It was at about this time … It was not the last time that he wished that.
The track climbed to the top of a ridge, … and the road faded from sight under the shadows at their feet.
‘Ha!’ said Gandalf, … Elrond must be told’.
They did not know what he meant. … but the arch was broken in the middle.
‘Well, what’s to be done?’ … nor in a storm of rain!’
‘Just so’ said Gandalf. … and see the worst!’
They came to the bridge-end, … were tumbled in the midst of its cold grey stream.
‘It might be worse’, said Gandalf. … Except, of course, by the Mines of Moria’.
The dwarves stared at him sullenly, … ‘What is your advice now?’
‘I also said that not roads are now safe’ … Rohald, his horse, answered his commands, … and turned back, and neighed.
The ponies snorted. … Neither were the dwarves.
‘Now or never!’ … even the pack-ponies.
Thorin mopped his face, … There’s no shelter here’.
‘Don’t you want the hobbit any more?’ said Gandalf. ‘I think you may need him’.
They had quite forgotten poor Bilbo! … than he had yet been in his life.
‘Confound your hobbit!’ said Thorin, ‘When will he learn to look after himself?’
‘In time’, said Gandalf. … I will come and help’.
Then the wizard went back over the stream, … and your own land is not so far ahead!’

At last they had all crossed: … as if something there alarmed them.> TS-QE-35<The History of the Hobbit; The Broken Bridge Gandalf spoke in the ear of his white horse, … There all the company mounted again.> TS-QE-36<HoMe 6;From Weathertop to the Ford The Road looped away southward, towards the river> TS-QE-37<HoMe 6;From Weathertop to the Ford {‘That is} Loudwater, the Bruinen of Rivendell. {,’ answered Strider. ‘}The Road {runs}run along it for many leagues to the Ford.{’}>
TS-QE-38<Appendix A The story is told elsewhere of what came {of that meeting: of the strange plan that Gandalf made for the help of Thorin}after, and how Thorin and his companions set out from {the Shire}Rivendell on the quest of the Lonely Mountain that came to great ends unforeseen.>FY-HL-15b<
Of the Finding of the Ring
>TS-FR-01b<LotR; Of the Finding of the Ring The party was assailed by Orcs …
…
…
…
… but he did not discover the truth in this point for many more yearsTS-QE-39{, as will be seen in this book}.>FY-HL-15.5<
Sauron Defeated
>TS-FR-01.5<LotR; Of the Finding of the Ring Of Bilbo's later adventures little more need be said here. … but he kept it secret from them as long as he could.> TS-QE-40<Appendix A Here only those things are recalled that directly concern Durin’s Folk.>
TS-QE-41<The Quest of Erebor, Appendix {That is why, to jump forward, I}Gandalf went off as soon as the expedition against Smaug was well started, {and persuaded}[u]to persuad[/b] the Council to attack Dol Guldur first, before he attacked Lórien.> TS-QE-42<LotR; Of the Finding of the Ring The quest was successful, and the Dragon that guarded the hoard was destroyed.> TS-QE-43<Appendix A The Dragon was slain by Bard of Esgaroth, … and the Dwarves prospered and grew strong again in his day.>
TS-FR-03<Prologue After {his}Bilbo’s return to his home he never spoke of {it}the ring again to anyone, … that he was writing.
His sword, Sting, Bilbo hung over his fireplace, … remained in his pocket.>
TS-SL-04<ORP But ever the shadow in Mirkwood {grew}had grown deeper, … but Mithrandir spoke to the Council, saying:
‘It is not needed that the Ring should be found, … We must strike.’
To this Curunír now assented, … and Mirkwood for a brief while was made wholesome again.
But their stroke was too late. … and reared once again the dark towers of Barad-dûr. TS-QE-44<The Quest of Erebor, Appendix And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow.> And in that year the White Council met for the last time, … and took counsel with none save himself.
Orcs were mustering, … and it was hidden from Curunír and from Sauron TS-SL-04.5{. For it had been taken from Anduin long ere they sought for it, being found by one of the small fisherfolk that dwelt by the River, ere the Kings failed in Gondor; and by its finder it was brought beyond search into dark hiding under the roots of the mountains. There it dwelt, until even in the year of the assault upon Dol Guldur it was found again, by a wayfarer, fleeing into the depths of the earth from the pursuit of the Orcs, and passed into a far distant country, even to} in the land of the Periannath, … in all their counsels given thought to them.
>
TS-SL-07b<Appendix A Fengel {He} was the third son and fourth child of Folcwine of Rohan. He is not remembered … and won honor in the service of Turgon.>
TS-SL-05b<Appendix A Turgon followed Túrin TS-SL-06 in the line of the Stewards, but of his time it is chiefly remembered … and declared himself openly;{ and he re-entered Mordor long prepared for him. Then the Barad-dûr was raised once more,} and Mount Doom burst into flame, … and fortified it.>
TS-SL-08<[b]Appendix A Thengel {He }took no wife until late, … Her brother loved her dearly.
It was soon after Thengel's return … and supporting its enemies.>
TS-SL-10<Appendix A In 2989 Théodwyn married Éomund of Eastfold, … and was there surprised by a strong force that lay in wait in the rocks.
Not long after Théodwyn took sick and died to the great grief of {the king}here brother, King Théoden. Her children he took into his house, … and Théoden did not wed again.>
TS-SL-11<Appendix A Éomer and Éowyn grew up at Edoras … whom the Rohirrim had called Steelsheen.> TS-SL-12<Appendix A When still young {he}Éomer became a Marshal of the Mark (3017) and was given his father's charge in the east marches.>

Some Comments on my editing:
FY-HL-14.2: I took this a chaptertitle since it is the best summary of what follows.

FY-HL-14.4: This first Sub-chapter title might be left out, but it fit well and if we decised to keep TS-SL-01 & TS-SL-02 in this chapter the sub-heading is usefull.

TS-QE-01: I replaced part of the text from LotR, Appendix A with this passage as it seems the fuller account to me.

TS-QE-02: Here we begin with the real text of The Quest of Erebor. As we shift here from Frodo reporting Gandalf’s telling of the story to a straight forward reporting, we have to remove a lot ‘I’ and ‘he’ and so on. Bisde that in this fist part telling about Gandalf’s thought at the time we have to change the time. I will not farther comment on these changes which are all marked as grammatical.

TS-QE-03: I removed this paragraph change to make clearer that what follows is Gandalf’s thought.

TS-QE-04: I added this part of the Appendix here where I think it fits best.

TS-QE-05: This direct address of Gandalf to the hobbits as his audience has to go.

TS-QE-06: We take up the text of the The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-04.

TS-SL-03b: That passage is what I preserved of the original editing of ArcusCalion. The direct talk of Gandalf and Thorin at this occasion is not given eleswhere.

TS-QE-07: We take up the text of the The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-SL-03b.

TS-QE-08: This comes from a later part of the Appendix of The Quest of Erebor. But in our retelling it fits best here.

TS-QE-09: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-08.

TS-QE-10: Thorin’s long tale is not given in The Quest of Erebor, but I think it is need in our work to make the allusion to the Map and the Key of Erebor that will follow understandable. Beside the version in The Hobbit that is unusable for us and LotR, Appendix A that we have already used, we have this version from the 1960 revision of The Hobbit.

TS-QE-11: Here the text of the 1960 Hobbit ends and we have to take it from the original.

TS-QE-12: And addition given in the 1960 Hobbit.

TS-QE-13: And addition given in the 1960 Hobbit.

TS-QE-14: The 1960 Hobbit has here Thorin speak of him self and not all his people.

TS-QE-15: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-10.

TS-QE-16: I think this direct thought of Gandalf is worth including.

TS-QE-17: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-16.

TS-QE-18: This comes form an earlier point in the Appendix of The Quest of Erebor as an answer to Pippins question. But if we want to include it, here seems the best palce. Of course the direct address to Pippin has to be removed.

TS-QE-19: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-18.

TS-QE-20: Gandalf’s reasoning about Bilbo not being married seems worth the iteruption. I reformed the commentary of Christopher Tolkien into a footnote. But if that is not aoky we can leave it out.

TS-QE-21: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-20.

TS-QE-22: Here we change over to the long account of the discussion in Thorins Hall.

TS-QE-23: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-22, but only for very short insert, giving Gandalf’s assumption that it was a mistake not to see Bilbo first.

TS-QE-24: This allusion to the attack on Dol Guldur has to go. Gandalf does at this point not know that he would be succsefull in persuading the council to the attack.

TS-QE-25: As Christopher Tolkien tells us he thinks that this was left out untentianal, so we should restore it.

TS-QE-26: Again direct address by Gandalf to his audience.

TS-QE-27: I took up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-22, marking what was left out or used in TS-QE-23 as deleted.

TS-QE-28: The account of how long Thrain had been in prison and the guessing of how he could keep Map and Key are not found elsewhere.

TS-QE-29: Again we take up the text of The Quest of Erebor where we left it when inserting TS-QE-28.

FY-HL-14.6: If we take up this story we should as well take the sub-chapter heading. Now to the story itself: It is in a way contray to The Hobbit. But on the other hand it expands a few paragraphs into on full chapter. And the contradiction is only to one sentence that was added in to the second addition and created the biggest unconsitence between Hobbit and LotR. Before the Last Bridge over Mitheithel was introduce into the text of The Hobbit the episode of the pony jumping into the river and all the adventure with the Trolls were placed near to Bruinen some way lower than the ford. When JRR Tolkien added the Bridge he did it in a way that switched the secne of the Troll adventure to a point observeable from near to the Bridge. In itself that did not creat a problem, but with Aragorn, a Ranger in great haste to reach Rivendell, needing days to find that spot the account as given in The Hobbit is impossible. Beside that the journey of Thorin and Co. on Ponies is much to slow compared to Frodo & Co. on foot. The expanded story helps to explain that. Thus I think we should take the opportunity given with in our chapter The Quest of Erebor to give this far more detailed alternative account of the journey up to the point of crossing the Mitheithel. See farther TS-QE-35 to TS-QE-38.

TS-QE-30: We start with a kind of summary of the events at Bag-end, to make clear that they realy set out.

TS-QE-31: Here we take up the text form the 1960 Hobbit.

TS-QE-32: The detail about the All-welcome Inn and the roads used by stangers is new and given nowhere else.

TS-QE-33: I thought it worth mentioning that they did not expect to find the last Inn deserted. As Gandalf and Thorin had been at Bree only in March, the desertion of the Inn must have been rather recently.

TS-QE-34: Even so JRR Tolkien did not mention it, I think Weathertop should be included as landmark of the journey.

TS-QE-35: Here I skipt the episode of the pony jumping into Mitheithel. If included we would creat the same problem as mentione under FY-HL-14.6.

TS-QE-36 & TS-QE-37: Giving here the farther course of the road allows as to make the mind of the reader work out the rest of the correction I attemped to do: If Thorin & Co. followed the raod the Bruinen, then that is where the Pony jumps into and where they are near to the Troll lair.

TS-QE-38: The transition might be a bit forced, but that the break would be hard at the end of this additions from The Quest of Erebor and the 1960 Hobbit was clear from the outset.

FY-HL-15b: I called this editing 15b because it is set in a quite different palce and position.

TS-FR-01b: As I used part of this text before, the point were I took up that text is changed.

TS-QE-39: This is an allusion to LotR, so we should remove it.

FY-HL-15.5: I desiered a sub-chapter brake here and this title seemed the only one fitting the following at all. If someone has a better idea, I am open for discussions.

TS-FR-01.5: This is only to mark that we follow the text of the Prologue. In the effect I inserted the headline into it.

TS-QE-40: As we start out by saying we would not tell any thing about the rest of Bilbos adventure we have to qualify this here I think.

TS-QE-41: Gandalf absents from the longer part of the Quest and the reason for it seems important enough to be mentioned.

TS-QE-42: We take up the text of the Prologue where we left it inserting TS-QE-41.

TS-QE-43: Here we switch finaly back to LotR, Appendix A. The slight redundance seems okay to me, since Appendix A adds the detail of Bard as the slayer of Smaug.

TS-FR-03 & TS-SL-04: These are unchanged.

TS-QE-44: Here I added a detail about Saurons orgininal plans and the effect of disturbing him.

TS-SL-04.5 to TS-SL-12. These are again unchanged.

A long post and a lot of text added. I hope at least a part of it makes it to the final version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

As this post is very very long, I think I will first make some general responses:

1) First thing first: WOW! This is an incredibly skillful and labor-intensive draft, and I must congratulate you, Fin, on executing it as well as you did! Your draft has convinced me that we can and should include The Quest for Erebor into this chapter.

2) To your point about shifting the short description of the events of Turin and Folcwine's sons to the previous chapter I agree.

3) In terms of Chapter headings and subheadings: I think that we do not need more than The Quest for Erebor (as the chapter name) and Of the Finding of the Ring as a subheading. I know they must both contain a LOT of information, but I think that is ok. The first subheading you suggested, A Well-Planned Party is not needed once we shift the first few paragraphs to the previous chapter, and (as I will argue below) The Broken Bridge belongs to a segment of the draft which I think should be removed entirely. Finally, Sauron Defeated, while it would be nice to have a subheading here, I think it is innacurate. He is not defeated in this case, as is made very plain by the text. He simply retreats before them, which was his plan in the end anyway, so he is in no way defeated. In addition, I think we should avoid creating chapter names from no source (like The Last Alliance) and so [i]Sauron Defeated would be better served there. To combat the length of the chapter, we can discuss making Of the Finding of the Ring into its own chapter dealing with the actual adventure of Bilbo, as opposed to The Quest for Erebor which would deal with the lead-up to the adventure.

4) The Inclusion of the 1960 Hobbit revisions: To begin, I will lay out what is used: 1) the bit about the sorrows of the Dwarves as told by Thorin, and 2) the first few chapters of the adventure from setting out from Bagend to the Trolls. First of all, I think to use the texts of these revisions is very risky. In many places they are extremely similar to the text of the Hobbit itself. As including The Hobbit in the story lies outside the scope of the project, I think to include a retelling in the exact same scope and narrative style and level of detail also goes against the project's scope. However, the two pieces used are not the same. The discussion of Thorin about the sorrows of his house (1) is (I think) different, simply because of the reason you included it: we know it happened at that point of the story, so to assume it was the same account is not unreasonable, and using the draft version is different enough from the published for it to work. However, for (2) I see no benefit to giving a highly detailed description of their adventure up to right before Rivendell, and then summarizing the entire 2/3 of the remaining narrative in one or two paragraphs. If the entire adventure must be summarized, then we should simply summarize it, instead of giving some of it in full and then reverting to summary. In addition, I worry that revising the speech of the characters in the Hobbit is tantamount to contradiction of the published work. For all of these reasons, I am fundamentally opposed to include the revised text describing their adventures (TS-QE-31 to 37).

Aside from these things mentioned, overall the composition of the draft was incredibly good, and any more detailed concerns I lay out will be restricted to differences of opinion about tense changes, or how to present Gandalf's thoughts. In terms of the structure of the additions and changes, it was phenomenally done. In the following post I will lay out my specific comments, and I'll try to have that post up at least by sometime tomorrow. I would still love to be able to see a full draft posted in the private forum, as opposed to simply selections, as it makes the commenting and editing process much easier.

[ArcusCalion]

Everything to which I do not respond (and everything not mentioned in the previous post) I agree to.

TS-QE-03: I agree to this addition here, but I would edit it differently, as your version does not flow naturally.

TS-QE-03{
"I}He was very troubled at that time, {’ he said, ‘} for Saruman was hindering all {my}his plans. {I}He knew that Sauron had arisen again and would soon declare himself, and {I}Gandalf knew that he was preparing for a great war. How would he begin? Would he try first to re-occupy Mordor, or would he first attack the chief strongholds of his enemies? {I}Gandalf thought {then, and I am sure now,} that to attack Lórien and Rivendell, as soon as he was strong enough was his original plan. It would have been a much better plan for him, and much worse for {us}the Free Peoples.
{‘You may think}It may be thought that Rivendell was out of his reach, but {I}Gandalf did not think so. The state of things in the North was very bad. The Kingdom under the Mountain and the strong Men of Dale were no more. To resist any force that Sauron might send to regain the northern passes in the mountains and the old lands of Angmar there were only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills, and behind them lay a desolation and a Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Often {I}Gandalf said to {myself}himself: ‘I must find some means of dealing with Smaug. But a direct stroke against Dol Guldur is needed still more. We must disturb Sauron's plans. I must make the Council see that.'

This makes the editing much less drastic, and keeps the flow going smoothly.

TS-QE-05: This is fine, but at the end of the addition, there are some sentences about picking Bilbo specifically, which I think are out of place. They should be moved down to TS-QE-18, or removed entirely.

TS-QE-31 to 37: As I said in my last post, I think these should be removed, and it can flow as it did in my own draft, starting with TS-QE-30 after the subheading Of the Finding of the Ring, or perhaps it can be a new chapter.

The rest seems fine. As can be seen, I have relatively few changes, as this was a masterful draft. There may be more things for me to comment on when I see the full text, especially spelling and grammatical errors, but in terms of structure these are my only concerns.

[Findegil]

1) Thank you for the flowers, I am not sure they are warranted.

2) Okay.

3) Oaky we leave A Well-Planned Party out and if we are done with the discussion about the corresponding content we can decised about The Broken Bridge. I can see your reason and agree to use Sauron defeated at its original place. But nonetheless I think we need and replacement for it here in this chapter. As we have no good title I would add an editorial * * *.
I have no problem with the length of the chapter and therefore would keep Of the Finding of the Ring as sub heading.

4) Interisting, I thought that focus of the discussion would be exactly oposit, as the fist addition from the 1960 Hobbit I actually had to use part of the book in print to get a full text. Anyhow I am happy with that talk of Thorin about the Dwarves of Erebor finding acceptance.
Nonetheless I will break a lance for the inclusion of The Broken Bridge: I think we have done something very similar with material from The Quest of Erebor: First we have the description of the meeting and Discussion of Gandalf and Thorin and Gandalf’s visit to the shire and in the Blue Moutains for a second time, after that we have a short summary of Gandalf’s visit to Bilbo and the events at the afternoon. Then we get a broad retelling of the discussion between Gandalf and Thorin during the night, when Bilbo has gone to sleep. So we have detailed telling of events left out from The Hobbit mingled with short summary of events reported in that book.
The same would be true if we include The Broken Bridge. The corosponding passage to all that I added for this sub-chapter from The Hobbit reads:

At first they had passed through hobbit-lands, a wild respectable country inhabited by decent folk, with good roads, an inn or two, and now and then a dwarf or a farmer ambling by on business. Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before. Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse. Not far ahead were dreary hills, rising higher and higher, dark with trees. On some of them were old castles with an evil look, as if they had been built by wicked people. Everything seemed gloomy, for the weather that day had taken a nasty turn. Mostly it had been as good as May can be, even in merry tales, but now it was cold and wet. In the Lone-lands they had to camp when they could, but at least it had been dry. "To think it will soon be June," grumbled Bilbo as he splashed along behind the others in a very muddy track. It was after tea-time; it was pouring with rain, and had been all day; his hood was dripping into his eyes, his cloak was full of water; the pony was tired and stumbled on stones; the others were too grumpy to talk. "And I'm sure the rain has got into the dry clothes and into the food-bags," thought Bilbo. "Bother burgling and everything to do with it! I wish I was at home in my nice hole by the fire, with the kettle just beginning to sing!" It was not the last time that he wished that!

I can imagian that it could help to remove the personal view point of the story, so that it become less similar to the text of the book in print:

… cross the great bridge over the Brandywine River and entered what Bilbo called the Outlands, where outlandish things might be expected at any turn.{ At last he felt that his Adventure had begun.}
But beyond the Bridge the road was still good ...
...
... well-known to the hobbits of the east side of the Shire.{ Bree was as far as Bilbo’s knowledge reached, even by hearsay.} Beyond {it}Bree the lands had been desolate for many long years. ... but it was grey now and rather sad.
{Bilbo’s spirit fell, and he said very, little, thinking always of the next stop for food, though meals came much more seldom (and more scanty) than he would have liked. }So they went on for many days, and each day they became more silent and wary; for there was a stillness all round them – as if the land was listening{ (so Bilbo thought to himself)}. TS-QE-34<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary {by}By the evening of May 10th ...
It was at about this time that things took a bad turn. One morning cold wind from the east met them with a breath of far mountains, bringing low clouds and driving rain. {Bilbo shivered. ‘Not what I call June!’ he grumbled as he splashed along behind all the others in a deep muddy track that was fast becoming a stream. Poor hobbit, he was quite out of his reckoning; it was the nineteenth of May, but the three weeks on the road began to seem endless. ‘Bother adventures and everything to do with them!’ he thought. ‘I whish I was at home by the fire with the kettle just beginning to sing!’ It was not the last time that he wished that.
}The track climbed to the top of a ridge, …

With these passages removed we could consider that what we replace of The Hobbit is only.

At first they had passed through hobbit-lands, a wild respectable country inhabited by decent folk, with good roads, an inn or two, and now and then a dwarf or a farmer ambling by on business. Then they came to lands where people spoke strangely, and sang songs Bilbo had never heard before. Now they had gone on far into the Lone-lands, where there were no people left, no inns, and the roads grew steadily worse.

At least it shold be clear from this comparision, that this addition would be in line with the overall aim of the project, and the corallary to our rules:

A corallary is that we may not disregard any text or note, old idea or projected change, by JRRT unless it is invalidated by one of the above principles, explicitly or implicitly; that is, we must have a REASON for rejecting something.

At least as I interpret them.

TS-QE-03: Agreed, so I would avoid the following us of ‘he’ because the reverence is not fully clear:

TS-QE-03{
"I} He was very troubled at that time,{" he said, "}for Saruman was hindering all {my}his plans. {I}Gandalf knew that Sauron had arisen again …

TS-QE-05: Agreed, we remove them entirely.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

3) I agree to the use of the '*****' as an editorial distinction, as I think it is enough. I as well agree with keeping Of the Finding of the Ring as a subheading. As to The Broken Bridge see below.

4) Hmm actually seeing it all laid out is indeed very different. I hadn't realized just how short this portion of the adventure was.... Very well, I will agree to the inclusion of these changes, albeit somewhat reluctantly. I do not deny that it is something I had wanted to be able to do somehow when I learned about the 1960 revisions, perhaps to include in the project a 'revised' Hobbit, but I see now that this way is better. Very well Fin, you have won me over . I do not think Aiwendil will be that easy to convince, however, if he ever gets to this draft. I will also keep The Broken Bridge as a sub-heading.

TS-QE-03: Agreed.

I must say, after all that whirlwind of confusion, that turned out to be remarkably simple. Well done Fin! Your flowers are most absolutely deserved.

[Findegil]

Sorry for not providing these changes at once with my draft, but I was hesitating about them until I had posted the draft:

…and went at a leisurely pace, spending nights in good inns. TS-QE-32b<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary /The night of April 28th they spend/{Spend night} at the All-welcome Inn, at junction of the Northway and the East Road (on Hobbiton side of Frogmorton). So-called because much used by travelers through the Shire, especially by dwarves on the way to Thorin’s home in exile, which was in the west-side of the Blue mountains (southern part, in Harlindon). {None of this is mentioned in the text, but The All-welcome Inn should be marked on the needed Shire-map in any new edition of The Hobbit. }It has to be remembered that the East Road though it ran through the Shire was not the property of the hobbits: it was an ancient ‘royal road’, and they maintained the traditional duty of keeping it in repair and providing hospitality for travelers. This was of course profitable. It also provided their chief source of ‘outside news’. Dwarves were therefore not a rare sight on the East Road or in its inns ({It}it would also appear that they were sometimes employed as roadmenders and bridge-repairers), but they seldom turned off it, and their appearance in a company in Bywater and Hobbiton must have caused a lot of talk. They cared very little about hobbits, and had little to do with them, except as a source of food in exchange for metal, or sometimes forged articles (knives, ploughshares, arrowheads, axe-heads and the like). The poorer sort (or Thorin’s folk in their earlier time of poverty) might accept employment, as masons and roadmakers for example. But they had the notion that hobbits were a slow stupid folk, with few artefacts, and simpleminded – because the hobbits were generous, never haggled, and gave what was asked.
{2. April 29. Night}/The next night Thorin and his companions were/ at Whitfurrows.>{; not} Not until the Saturday afternoon did they cross the great bridge over the Brandywine River ...
...
...
...
In a day or two they came to Bree on the Hill. There they spent their last comfortable night for many a day to come, in the great inn of Bree, the Prancing Pony, well-known to the hobbits of the east side of the Shire. TS-QE-33.7<The History of the Hobbit; Itinerary {They reach Bree (another 20miles).} There they {stay the night, and purchase}also purchased a good many supplies (including pipe-weed).>{ Bree was as far as Bilbo’s knowledge reached, even by hearsay.} Beyond {it}Bree the lands had been desolate for many long years. ...
...
...
...
‘Ha!’ said Gandalf, peering through the rain. ‘The bridge! The bridge is broken!’ He turned away snapping his fingers and muttering to himself: ‘there is mischief here! Elrond must be told TS-QE-34.7<The History of the Hobbit; Note at the end of Fifth Phase{Ch. III should make clear Elrond’s} He has the care for the roads {etc.}[/u]and bridges[/b] from Greyflood to the {<}Mountains{>}>’.
They did not know what he meant. ...
…
…
…
... ‘Steady now’, he said to the horse. ‘Over once more, and your own land is not so far ahead!’ TS-QE-34.9<The History of the Hobbit; Note at the end of Fifth Phase{Also insert the} The white horse Róhald belonged to Rivendell, {&}and had been lent by Elrond to Gandalf.>

At last they had all crossed: ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

nice, looks good, some good tidbits!