Pro Morgoth version of the Dagor Dagorath

[Zigûr]

Huinesoron has given a pretty comprehensive response, so I'll only add this:

I have this possibly erroneous memory that there was once a hint of an idea in a version of the Second Prophecy which essentially said that if Men sided with Morgoth then Morgoth would win, but if Men sided with the Valar then he would lose.

That being said, I can't substantiate this. Perhaps it was just my imagination.

[Huinesoron]

You're right! Sort of & maybe. This is tied up in the Faring Forth, which is a fairly nebulous idea from the end of the original legendarium. The quote I think you're thinking of is this:

Originally Posted by Book of Lost Tales 2

(6) The Elves' prophecy is that one day they will fare forth from Tol Eressea and on arriving in the world will gather all their fading kindred who still live in the world and march towards Valinor - through the southern lands. This they will only do with the help of Men. If Men aid them, the fairies will take Men to Valinor - those that wish to go - fight a great battle with Melko in Erumani and open Valinor. Laurelin and Silpion will be rekindled, and the mountain wall being destroyed then soft radiance will spread over all the world, and the Sun and Moon will be recalled. If Men oppose them and aid Melko the Wrack of the Gods and the ending of the fairies will result - and maybe the Great End.

Does 'maybe the Great End' mean that a failed Faring Forth would be a precursor of Dagor Dagorath - that the Wrack of the Gods would be followed by all the shenanigans with Turin and Fi/Eonwe? Or is the battle in Valinor the Dagorath, and only takes place if Men aid the elves (since in the second scenario, Men never even reach Valinor)? It's not at all clear.

What makes all this even more confusing is that the Faring Forth happened - sort of. Tolkien's notes for the end of the Book of Lost Tales include this:

Originally Posted by BoLT2

Rising of the Lost Elves against the Orcs and Nautar. The time is not ready for the Faring Forth, but the fairies judge it to be necessary. They obrain through Ulmo the help of Uin, and Tol Eressea is uprooted and dragged near to the Great Lands, nigh to the promontory of Ros. A magic bridge is cast across the intervening sound. Osse is wroth at the breaking of the roots of the isle he set so long ago - and many of his rare sea-treasures grow about it - that he tries to wrench it back; and the western half breaks off, and is now the Isle of Iverin.

The Battle of Ros: the Island-elves and the Lost Elves against Nautar, Gongs, Orcs, and a few evil Men. Defeat of the Elves. The fading Elves retire to Tol Eressea and hide in the woods.

Men come to Tol Eressea and also Orcs, Dwarves, Gongs, Trolls, etc. After the Battle of Ros the elves faded with sorrow. They cannot live in air breathed by a number of Men equal to their own or greater; and ever as Men wax more powerful and numerous so the fairies fade and grow small and tenuous, filmy and transparent, but Men larger and more dense and gross. At last Men, or almost all, can no longer see the fairies.

The Gods now dwell in Valinor, and come scarcely ever to the world, being content with the restraining of the elements from utterly destroying Men. They grieve much at what they see; but Iluvatar is over all.

Given the prophecy, this failed Faring Forth is nothing more or less than the elves trying to kick off the End of Days. They never get that far, though - they get stuck in northern France, and never make it to the 'southern lands'. There is actually a narrative fragment covering the failure; it's interesting reading.

Also! I found the other story I was thinking of, with Melkor being chased up a tree. The BoLT material is super weird, did I mention?

Originally Posted by BoLT2

After the departure of Earendel and the coming of the Elves to Tol Eressea (and most of this belongs to the history of Men) great ages elapse; Men spread and thrive, and the Elves of the Great Lands fade. As Men's stature grows theirs diminishes. Men and Elves were formerly of a size, though Men always larger.

Melko again breaks away, by the aid of Tevildo (who in long ages gnaws his bonds); the Gods are in dissension about Men and Elves, some favouring the one and some the other. Melko goes to Tol Eressea and tries to stir up dissension among the Elves (between Gnomes and Solosimpi), who are in consternation and send to Valinor. No help comes, but Tulkas sends priviliy Telimektar (Taimonto) his son.

Telimektar of the silver sword and Ingil surprise Melko and wound him, and he flees and climbs up the great Pine of Tavrobel. Before the Inwir left Valinor Belaurin (Palurien) gave them a seed, and said that it must be guarded, for great tidings would one day come of its growth. But it was forgotten, and cast in the garden of Gilfanon, and a mighty pine arose that reached to Ilwe and the stars.

Telimektar and Ingil pursue him, and they remain now in the sky to ward it, and Melko stalks high above the air seeking ever to do a hurt to the Sun and Moon and stars (eclipses, meteors)...

This is fascinating stuff, because I think it's the only place that casts Melko[r] as a continuing force for evil in the world, rather than just a shadow on the hearts of Men. Also... Melko got chased up a tree! And he only escaped because his pet cat chewed through, presumably, the massive unbreakable chain Angainor.

And finally... that pine tree may well exist in the real world. Tavrobel is pretty closely identified with Great Haywood, where Edith Tolkien lived in the winter of 1916. Gilfanon, in whose garden the pine grew, lived in the House of the Hundred Chimneys near the bridge of Tavrobel.

One popular guess at the house Tolkien was thinking of is Shugborough Hall, which sits right next to a rather gorgeous old bridge outside Great Haywood. And wouldn't you know it, guess what the most prominent tree in the gardens of Shugborough is?



Yup.

(Bridge of Tavrobel, Gilfanon's house, Great Pine of Tavrobel)

Watch out - you never know who might be coming down...

hS

[Rhun charioteer]

I don't remember where I read it, it was online somewhere but one line I do recall was "Manwe and Varda perish under the sinking sea" or something to that effect. An orcish chant foretelling Morgoth's final victory it seemed.

I don't remember where I read it, but I do recall that line in particular.

[Huinesoron]

Ah, now I know what you're thinking of. I didn't recognise the line, but the only place I know of that could contain it as a chant would be one of the epic poems. Sure enough, in the Lay of Leithian, Sauron says these lines:

Originally Posted by LoL Canto VIII

"Whom do ye serve, Light or Mirk?
Who is the maker of mightiest work?
Who is the king of earthly kings,
the greatest giver of gold and rings?
Who is the master of the wide earth?
Who despoiled them of their mirth,
the vain Valar? Repeat your vows,
Orcs of Bauglir! Do not bend your brows.
Death to light, to law, to love;
cursed be moon and stars above;
may darkness everlasting old
that waits outside in surges cold
drown Manwë, Varda and the sun;
may all in hatred be begun
and all in evil ended be
in the moaning of the endless Sea!"

... to which Beren responds by mouthing off, because that's kind of his thing. And then Sauron offers to serenade them, because Middle-earth, in case you didn't know, is kind of odd.

Is this a prophecy? I'd say not. Rather, it's a prayer of sorts to Morgoth Bauglir, asking or hoping that he will bring the world into utter darkness. Which makes Orcish religion a seriously messed-up prospect; I'm not sure anyone's ever written about Orcs as a cult before, but look at that: they swear vows to the Lord of Mirk, Maker, Gift-Giver, King of Kings and Despoiler of Bliss, and what they vow is 'death to law, to light, to love'. Wow.

What this does give us is Morgoth's idea of how the Dagorath should go: he gets to destroy everything. That's the key difference between Morgoth and Sauron: Sauron may not want to create, precisely, but he does want to rule. For Morgoth, ruling is just a means to an end, and the end is smashing the world.

hS

[Zigûr]

I really need to read up. My knowledge is getting sloppy.

[Rhun charioteer]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ah, now I know what you're thinking of. I didn't recognise the line, but the only place I know of that could contain it as a chant would be one of the epic poems. Sure enough, in the Lay of Leithian, Sauron says these lines:



... to which Beren responds by mouthing off, because that's kind of his thing. And then Sauron offers to serenade them, because Middle-earth, in case you didn't know, is kind of odd.

Is this a prophecy? I'd say not. Rather, it's a prayer of sorts to Morgoth Bauglir, asking or hoping that he will bring the world into utter darkness. Which makes Orcish religion a seriously messed-up prospect; I'm not sure anyone's ever written about Orcs as a cult before, but look at that: they swear [b]vows[/i] to the Lord of Mirk, Maker, Gift-Giver, King of Kings and Despoiler of Bliss, and what they vow is 'death to law, to light, to love'. Wow.

What this does give us is Morgoth's idea of how the Dagorath should go: he gets to destroy everything. That's the key difference between Morgoth and Sauron: Sauron may not want to create, precisely, but he does want to rule. For Morgoth, ruling is just a means to an end, and the end is smashing the world.

hS

Ah that's what I was thinking of and that does have some disturbing implications for what orc religion(if such a thing exists) can be said to look like. Basically a combination of Satanism and Nihilism or Satanic Nihilism, or Nihilistic Satanism.

[Huinesoron]

Every so often I come back to this thread to grin once again at the story where Morgoth gets chased up a tree.

This time, I'm here because Arvegil145 has discovered that Tolkien actually amended the HoME V version of the End of Days quoted in post #2. The amendments are listed by Christopher in HoME XI, giving us a 1958 Second Prophecy which reads:

The Second Prophecy of Mandos

Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Eonwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, and Beren Camlost, returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Kementari; and he will break them and with their fire Yavanna will rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world.

Note that the addition of Beren isn't precisely positioned; he could go in several places in the list of who was with Tulkas.

There are several references in The Nature of Middle-earth to the End of Days, though most just relate to Elvish aging. The only relevant one would seem to be this:

Originally Posted by NoME 3.XV

Is Aman "removed" or destroyed at the [Numenorean] Catastrophe?

[...] I think now that it is best that it should remain a physical landmass [...] It would just become an ordinary land [...] Aman and Eressea would be the memory of the Valar and Elvesof the former land. [...] But how then would the corporeal union of fëar and hroar be maintained in an Aman of memory only?

The answer, I think, is this.

The Catastrophe represents a definite intervention of Eru and therefore in a sense a change of the primal plan. It is a foretaste of the End of Arda. The situation is much later than "conversation of Finrod and Andreth" and could not then be foreseen by anyone, not even Manwë. In a sense Eru moved forward the End of Arda as far as it concerned the Elves...

The Elves are dying. They whether in Aman or outside will become fëar housed only in memory until the true End of Arda. They must await the issue of the War [?and] only then; and of their redemption foreglimpsed by Finrod: for their true returning (corporeal or in Eru's equivalent!) in Arda Remade.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Bouncing in again to add a potential Dagorath text: as identified here by Arvegil145, Finduilas may make reference to it in The Children of Hurin:

Originally Posted by Turin in Nargothrond

"The Adanedhel is mighty in the tale of the World, and his stature shall reach yet to Morgoth in some far day to come."

[...]

Maybe Finduilas spoke truly, seeing with the keen eyes of the Eldar.

It's not entirely clear if this is a prophecy, or if it is, whether it refers to the Dagorath or to the killing of Glaurung. But I'm adding it to the list anyway.

hS