The Return of the Shadow

[ArcusCalion]

That is fine, but can I ask why you don't want to repeat that the Blue Wizards came in the Second Age?

[Findegil]

Sorry, I should have explained that directly. It will make things easier if the decision that they have come in the second age is re-discussed with a different result. Since I am sure this discussion will occur, I think it is best to be prepared as far as possible for every possible outcome. It is clear that any other decision then the one we have taken will have a great impact on the chapter Note on the Five Wizards. But with the editing we have done here and in the chapter The End of the Third Age they might be unaffected.
Let us assume the decision would be changed to: we are not sure enough to include a clear statement of the arrival time of the Blue Wizards into our text. Then probably the content of Note on the Five Wizards would be include in volume 3. If the decision would be changed to: we are sure they came in the Third Age, then again the placement of the content of Note on the Five Wizards in volume 3 would be an option, but then of course a placement here would be an possibility as well.
But anyhow, if we would make a clear statement here, without need, we would have to remember it and change it if the decision is changed.
Reading farther in that same mood we should probably change RS-SL-32b and RS-SL-32.2. This is my suggestion:

... Of these Curunír was the eldest and came first, and after him came Mithrandir and Radagast RS-SL-32c, and others of the Istari RS-SL-32.2 <UT Istari , clad in sea-blue>RS-SL-32.2<editorial addition have there been, >who went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales. >RS-SL-32.5b<UT Istari Now the White Messenger in later days became known Elves as Curunír, …

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I think we can keep it for now, and if we change our consensus on the Second Age change, then we can revisit this.

I like this change.

After reading gandalf's draft for the addition of some of the Istari material to Of the Five Wizards, I agree with his placement, and so it needs to be removed from this draft. We can call that marker RS-SL-31.35.

[Findegil]

Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

This is a pretty remarkable chapter, the variety of sources used is staggering. I had not known about that "Realms of Tolkien" interview, Findegil sure knows a lot of obscure sources. With that said, here are my comments:

1) In RS-SL-16, we should change "It is" to "It was" for consistent tense.

2) In RS-SL-21 the text reads (without markings)

Eärnil I, nephew of Falastur, who succeeded him ...

It is obvious in the context of the previous paragraph that "him" is Tarannon, but this sentence makes it seem like Eärnil succeeds Falastur. I propose we change "him" to "Tarannon" to be explicit.

3) In the "Concerning Hobbits" section, I propose a few small changes which I think will make it flow better and read more naturally. I propose we change "Eriador" in RS-SL-29.5 to "that land". The way the text currently stands is as follows:

The Harfoots were the first clan of Hobbits to enter Eriador, and roamed over Eriador as far as Weathertop...

This is awkward to me. Also, I propose changing "The Harfoots" in RS-SL-29.6 and [B]RS-SL-29.7] to "They". This makes the text feel more natural; otherwise, there are three sentences in a row which start "The Harfoots". Similarly, I propose replacing "The Fallohides" in RS-SL-30.05 with "They" but that we keep it in RS-SL-30.06

4) There is a typo near the end of RS-SL-30.8:

...for even when they had holes to live in. Hobbits had long been accustomed to build sheds and workshops.

The first period after "to live in" should be a comma.

5) The section on the Istari felt very unorganized and disjointed to me. I will first make some comments on how the text is currently structured, then propose a re-organization of it.

The first paragraph is an introduction and is mostly linguistic. The second paragraph describes how men perceived them, while the third describes that they are actually Maiar who came over the Sea and were met by Cirdan at the Grey Havens. The fourth paragraph describes the order in which they came. The fifth paragraph contains almost entirely redundant information: they came over the Sea and met Cirdan, they appeared in the likeness of Men, the order in which they came. There are a few pieces of information which are new or state explicitly what was previously only implied, namely that Cirdan knew where they came from and he revealed this information to Galadriel and Celeborn. At the end of the first paragraph it says that "...none save maybe Elrond, Cirdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came". This says "maybe" but later we make it explicit: Cirdan knew and revealed this information to Galadriel and Celeborn. The fifth paragraph gives the names Curunir and Saruman, then these names are introduced again in the sixth paragraph. The end of the fifth paragraph says the Blue Wizards "went into the east of Middle-earth, and do not come into these tales." Then the sixth paragraph says "they passed into the East" and gives some guesses as to what happened to them. The second paragraph says they began "to move Elves and Men to beware of their peril" then in the fifth paragraph "to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds." Sorry if this sounds hyper-critical, I realize the redundancy is because many of the sections are later additions and they come from a variety of sources.

Here is the idea for my proposed re-organization: first is the linguistic introduction to "Istari" and "Wizard". Then a physical description of them as they are seen by men before they truly make themselves known. As the shadow of Sauron grows, they interact with Men more, who think they are Elves. But they are actually Maiar sent by the Valar. After this is a paragraph describing what they look like when they first arrive but not giving their names. Then the names and dwelling places of Saruman and Radagast are given. After this is speculation about the blue wizards. And finally, a description of Gandalf. Here is the draft, I have re-numbered all of the edits:

RS-SL-31.1 <ORP Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. RS-SL-31.2 <UT; The Istari Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar ... ‘wizards’ and ‘magicians’ of later legend; they belonged RS-SL-31.3 {solely} to the Third Age and then departed, and none save RS-SL-31.4 {maybe} Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. They first RS-SL-32.1 {appeared in} became known in the North of Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age, but for long they went about in simple guise, as it were of Men already old in years but hale in body, RS-SL-32.2 <ORP and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand.> [They were] travellers and wanderers, gaining knowledge of Middle-earth and all that dwelt therein, but revealing to none their powers and purposes. In that time Men saw them seldom and heeded them little.
But as the shadow of Sauron began to grow and take shape again, they became more active and sought ever to contest the growth of the Shadow, and to move Elves and Men to beware of their peril RS-SL-33.1 <ORP and to move {Elves and Men and} all living things of good will to valiant deeds.> Then far and wide rumour of their comings and goings, ... and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores{.} RS-SL-34.1 <ORP , and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal this {that they came over the Sea}.> Emissaries they were ... and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. RS-SL-34.2 {And this the Valar did, ... would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.}
Of this Order the number is unknown; ... the chiefs was five. The first to come RS-SL-35.1 were clad in sea-blue and {was} RS-SL-35.2 <late note came much earlier than the others, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.> In the Third Age, the first to come was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. RS-SL-35.3 {Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and} There was also one clad in earthen brown; and last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. RS-SL-35.4 {But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.}>
RS-SL-36.1 < ORP Long they journeyed far and wide among Elves and Men, and held converse also with beasts and with birds; and the peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal.> RS-SL-36.2 <UT Istari Now the White Messenger in later days became known among Elves as Curunír, the Man of Craft, in the tongue of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys> RS-SL-36.3 <ORP into the East, and when he returned he dwelt at Orthanc in the Ring of Isengard, which the Númenóreans made in the days of their power.> {and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode.} RS-SL-36.4 <ORP Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft.> RS-SL-36.5 <ORP Radagast was the friend of all beasts and birds; RS-SL-36.6 <UT Istari Note 4 Rhosgobel, {called "} the old home of Radagast {" in The Fellowship of the Ring II 3}, is said to have been {"}in the forest between the Carrock and the Old Forest Road RS-SL-36.7 <The Hobbit near the southern borders of Mirkwood>.>
RS-SL-37.1 <UT Istari Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names ... RS-SL-37.3 {A separate passage written in the margin no doubt belongs here:} For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari ... they might redress the evils of that time.>
RS-SL-38.1 <UT Istari But the last-comer was named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, for he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers, but ever went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lórien, befriending all folk in times of need.> RS-SL-38.2 <UT Istari Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode.> Warm and eager was his spirit RS-SL-38.3 {(and it was enhanced by the ring Narya)}, for he was the enemy of Sauron, ... and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.>

Comments:

RS-SL-31.3: This first paragraph is about the Wizards in general, including the Blue Wizards. The statement "they belonged solely to the Third Age" is not true of all the Wizards. I removed "solely" to make the statement more ambiguous.

RS-SL-31.4: There is no ambiguity later that Cirdan, Galadriel and Celeborn know where the Wizards came from.

RS-SL-32.2: This is more physical description and ends with the information that they had many powers. Then the next sentence says they did not reveal these powers.

In between RS-SL-34.1 and RS-SL-34.2: I didn't make changes here, but I have a concern. This paragraph explicitly states the Valar had "the consent of Eru" but in the "Five Wizards" chapter this is ambiguous. Should we remove the ambiguity in that chapter?

RS-SL-36.3: I have removed the general statement that Saruman "came into the realm of Gondor and there abode" and replaced it with his more specific dwelling place.

RS-SL-36.5: After the name and dwelling place of Curunir comes the name and dwelling place of Radagast. Then in the next two paragraphs are the names and "dwelling places" of the Blue Wizards and Mithrandir.

[Findegil]

1) RS-SL-16: Agreed.
2) RS-SL-21: Since Falastur is a name under which Tarannon toke up his kingship. I think we should put in both names.
3) RS-SL-29.5: I am okay with the change ‘{Eriador}that land’.
RS-SL-29.6 & RS-SL-29.7: Here I am as well okay with the change ‘{The Harfoots}They’ in RS-SL-29.6. But I would leave ‘The Harfoots’ stand in RS-SL-29.7 – if we change it here as well we will create 3 sentences in a row starting with ‘They’, which I think awkward.
30.05: Agreed.
4) Thanks fro pointing it out.
5) I am not against the reordering. But I have to check that more in detail, and I am sure that we must work on the editing and the editing markers. It is a no go to have the same marker for different editings. If you feel it necessary to renumber, please change the middle letters.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Coming back to the reorganisation of The Istari part of this chapter. As I said, the editing markers have given me a headache, and I think we must change them to allow keeping track of the development as good as might be. Therefore I will at first give here as list of the corresponding editing markers. First will be the markers of our old version, then the corresponding one of gandalf85’s editing and last the combined one that should be used farther on. The list is sorted in the order in which they appear in the text as edited by gandalf85. Please mark that I do not propose hear any change in the content. My idea about that will follow later on. In this first part of my post, I am only concerned with the editing markers:
RS-SL-31 / RS-SL-31.1 => RS-SL-31g
RS-SL-31.2 / RS-SL-31.2 => RS-SL-31.2g
n.a. / RS-SL-31.3 => RS-SL-31.23g
n.a. / RS-SL-31.4 => RS-SL-31.4g
RS-SL-31.25 / RS-SL-32.1 => RS-SL-31.25g
n.a. / RS-SL-32.2 => RS-SL-32.2g
n.a. / n.a. (gandalf85 put in a paragraph brake between ‘... and heeded them little.’ and ‘But as the shadow of Sauron ...’. I like that change, but it is an editorial act that we have to mark. => RS-SL-32.25g
n.a. / RS-SL-33.1 => RS-SL-33.1g
n.a. / RS-SL-34.1 => RS-SL-34.1g
n.a. / n.a. => RS-SL-34.3g (new addition, see commentary below)
RS-SL-31.35 / RS-SL-34.2 => RS-SL-31.35g
n.a. / RS-SL-35.1 => RS-SL-35.1g
n.a. / RS-SL-35.2 => RS-SL-35.2g
RS-SL-31.3c / n.a. => RS-SL-31.3g This marks the beginning of the sentence about Saruman that goes on with: ‘was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; ...’. Since this first part is an editorial addition, I think a maker is to be used here.
n.a. / RS-SL-35.3 => RS-SL-35.3g
RS-SL-31.6 / RS-SL-35.4 => RS-SL-31.6h (proposed by me to be changed a bit, see commentary below)
RS-SL-31.5 / RS-SL-36.1 => RS-SL-31.5g
RS-SL-32.5b / RS-SL-36.2 => RS-SL-32.5g
n.a. / RS-SL-36.3 => RS-SL-36.3g
n.a. / RS-SL-36.4 => RS-SL-36.4g
RS-SL-32.8 / RS-SL-36.5 => RS-SL-32.8g
n.a. / n.a. => RS-SL-32.9g (new addition, see commentary below)
RS-SL-33b / RS-SL-36.6 => RS-SL-33g
RS-SL-34 / RS-SL-36.7 => RS-SL-34g
n.a. / RS-SL-37.1 => RS-SL-37.1g
n.a. / n.a. => RS-SL-37.2g (new addition, see commentary below)
RS-SL-32.7 / RS-SL-37.3 => RS-SL-32.7g
RS-SL-34.5 / RS-SL-38.1 => RS-SL-34.5g
n.a. / RS-SL-38.2 => RS-SL-38.2g
RS-SL-34.6 / RS-SL-38.3 => RS-SL-34.6g

I kept the markers of gandalf85 as much untouched as possible, I only re-established the old markers, where a corresponding change had already occurred and I changed the number of new changes only where unfortunately the number used by gandalf85 had already been in use. Where I had to give new numbers, I tried my best to choose them in good relation to the neighbours. To mark that all these changes are in correspondence with gandalf85’s re-arrangement I added the small letter ‘g’ after the number.
Over all this leads to a somewhat unorganised numbering, but it keeps the correspondence as good as possible, which is of greater importance.

Okay after that painstaking organisational work, let’s come to the content:
I will not try to comment on the formatting issues I found. Instate I will give below the text, as I think it should, be with all the corrected editing markers and as nicely formatted as I could manage it. The content (after cleaning) should be nearly the same as proposed by gandalf85, which means I agreed to his re-arrangement. On the few differences that I introduced I will comment here before giving the text:
I found a typo within RS-SL-34.1g: ‘... but clad in bodies of as of Men, ...’ must be ‘... but clad in bodies as of Men, ...’.
RS-SL-34.3g: I added here ‘old but vigorous,’ from ORP. This fact is mentioned in the text, but I think it is worth repeating here.
RS-SL-31.6h: It is clear that we should not give the information that Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf, but that Círdan at once referred Gandalf higher than most should probably be kept. My reasoning is that we later tell that Saruman discovered that Círdan had given Narya to Gandalf, so I think we should give some starting point for his suspicion and research.
RS-SL-32.9g: I did not check how this was in the original text, but in our editing, only by counting of it becomes clear that Radagast is the ‘Brown Messenger’. And that counting could only be done after reading through all the sub-chapter. At this point in the chapter only White is given to Saruman. In the next paragraph Blue is given to the Wizards going of the stage to the east and only in the last paragraph Grey is given to Gandalf. Especially since we changed the order in which we mention the Istari here from that in which they came to Middle-earth as given earlier in this chapter, I think we should make it here easier for our readers, by building an editorial addition calling him here including the epithet from LotR ‘Radagast the Brown’.
RS-SL-37.2g: This is a snippet take from another place of the Istari essay that gandalf85 did not include when he rearranged the text. I think it works very well here to explain why we do know so little about the pair.
Okay, here at the long last the text as it stands after my editing:

FY-HL-04.4<UT; The Istari
The Istari
>RS-SL-31g<ORP Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. RS-SL-31.2g<UT; The Istari Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged RS-SL-31.23g{solely }to the Third Age and then departed, and none save RS-SL-31.4g{maybe }Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.
Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. They first RS-SL-31.25g{appeared in}<editorial addition based became known in the North of> Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age, but for long they went about in simple guise, as it were of Men already old in years but hale in body, RS-SL-32.2g<ORP and they changed little with the years, and aged but slowly, though great cares lay on them; great wisdom they had, and many powers of mind and hand.> They were travellers and wanderers, gaining knowledge of Middle-earth and all that dwelt therein, but revealing to none their powers and purposes. In that time Men saw them seldom and heeded them little. RS-SL-32.25g<editorial addition
>But as the shadow of Sauron began to grow and take shape again, they became more active and sought ever to contest the growth of the Shadow, and to move Elves and Men to beware of their peril RS-SL-33.1g<ORP and to move{ Elves and Men and} all living things of good will to valiant deeds>. Then far and wide rumour of their comings and goings, and their meddling in many matters, was noised about the Men; and Men perceived that they did not die, but remained the same (unless it were that they aged somewhat in looks), while the fathers and sons of Men passed away. Men, therefore, grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of the Elven-race (with whom, indeed, they often consorted).
Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores RS-SL-34.1g<ORP , and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal {that they came over the Sea.}>this. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, RS-SL-34.3g<ORP old but vigorous,> real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. RS-SL-31.35g{ And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.}
Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five. The first to come RS-SL-35.1g<UT Istari, moved from below were clad in sea-blue, and RS-SL-35.2g<late note came much earlier than the others, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age.> RS-SL-31.3g<editorial addition In the Third Age the first to come >was one of noble mien and bearing, with raven hair, and a fair voice, and he was clad in white; great skill he had in works of hand, and he was regarded by well-nigh all, even by the Eldar, as the head of the Order. RS-SL-35.3g{(1) Others there were also: two}There was one clad {in sea-blue, and one }in earthen brown; and the last came one who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him reverence RS-SL-31.6h{, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red}.
>RS-SL-31.5g<ORP Long they journeyed far and wide among Elves and Men, and held convers also with beasts and with birds; and the peoples of Middle-earth gave to them many names, for their true names they did not reveal.> RS-SL-32.5g<UT Istari Now the White Messenger in later days became known among Elves as Curunír, the Man of Craft, in the tongue of Northern Men Saruman; but that was after he returned from his many journeys RS-SL-36.3g{and came into the realm of Gondor and there abode.}><ORP into the East, and when he returned he dwelt at Orthanc in the Ring of Isengard, which the Númenóreans made in the days of their power.> RS-SL-36.4g<ORP Curunír went most among Men, and he was subtle in speech and skilled in all the devices of smith-craft.> RS-SL-32.8g<ORP Radagast RS-SL-32.9g<editorial addition based on LotR the Brown >was the friend of all beasts and birds; RS-SL-33g<UT Istari Note 4 Rhosgobel, {called “}the old home of Radagast{“ in The Fellowship of the Ring II 3}, is said to have been {“}in the forest between the Carrok and the Old Forest Road RS-SL-34g<The Hobbit near the southern borders of Mirkwood>.{“}>
RS-SL-37.1g<UT Istari Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin "the Blue Wizards;" for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, RS-SL-37.2g<UT Istari and do not come into these tales;> and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.{(3)} But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed though this may seem, the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it.RS-SL-32.7g{
A separate passage written in the margin no doubt belongs here:
}For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.>
RS-SL-34.5g<UT Istari But the last-comer was named among the Elves Mithrandir, the Grey Pilgrim, for he dwelt in no place, and gathered to himself neither wealth nor followers, but ever went to and fro in the Westlands from Gondor to Angmar, and from Lindon to Lórien, befriending all folk in times of need. RS-SL-38.2g<UT Istari Mithrandir was closest in counsel with Elrond and the Elves. He wandered far in the North and West and made never in any land any lasting abode.> Warm and eager was his spirit RS-SL-34.6g{ (and it was enhanced by the ring Narya)}, for he was the enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress; but his joy, and his swift wrath, were veiled in garments grey as ash, so that only those that knew him well glimpsed the flame that was within. Merry he could be, and kindly to the young and simple, and yet quick at times to sharp speech and the rebuking of folly; but he was not proud, and sought neither power not praise, and thus far and wide he was beloved among all those that were not themselves proud. Mostly he journeyed unwearingly on foot, leaning on a staff; and so he was called among Men of the North Gandalf, “the Elf of the Wand”. For they deemed him (though in error, as has been said) to be of Elven-kind, since he would at times works wonders among them, loving especially the beauty of fire; and yet such marvels he wrought mostly for mirth and delight, and desired not that any should hold him in awe or take his counsels out of fear.>

Respectfully
Findegil