The End of the Third Age

[Findegil]

ETA-SL-26: I am not happy with this addition. Even so it is ‘many years later’ The New Shadow is still in ‘the day of old’, at least from our and our potential readers perspective. And as we have old Borlas in that tale (at least at the beginning, that we have) the recorded event in the The New Shadow are not far in the future at the time when Legolas and Gimli left and Arwen died.
Anyhow the sentence is more true as it stands, since the death of Arwen is probably later then the journey of Legolas and Gimli, even so we record it in a changed sequence.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Would you recommend that it be put (in some modified form) at the end of The New Shadow? Or simply removed entirely?

[Findegil]

Modifying it in a way that it would be useable at the end of 'The New Shadow' is using JRR Tolkiens words forming a fan-fictional sentence. I think we have to leave it out.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Another good chapter! Looking through this thread, I can see the chapter went through lots of changes for the better. I only have a few minor comments:

1) Regarding the Blue Wizards, this chapter states:

What success they had {I do not know; but I fear}is not known; but it is feared that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and {I suspect}it is suspected they were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.>

Here we say it is suspected the Blue Wizards failed, and what success they had is not known. But at the end of "Of the Five Wizards":

But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo; FW-SL-21 {(28)} Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion FW-SL-22{... } and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause {[? } dissension and disarray{]} among the dark East.{ ...} They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East {... }who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have {... }outnumbered the West.>

Here we say they had a great influence in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East, which seems like a success. I suppose these statements are fairly ambiguous, and they do not state anything definitively, due to phrases like "They must have had" and "it is suspected". I just wanted to bring it up. Do you guys think this is a contradiction, or are you OK keeping both sections?

2) ETA-SL-03.9 feels out of place:

.... Whereas Curunír was cast down, and utterly humbled, and perished at last by the hand of an oppressed slave; and his spirit went whithersoever it was doomed to go, and to Middle-earth, whether naked or embodied, came never back.>
ETA-SL-03.9 <UT Sources of the Legend of Isildur’s Death {Long afterwards, as}As the Third Age of the Elvish World waned and the War of the Ring approached, it was revealed to the Council of Elrond that the Ring had been found, sunk near the edge of the Gladden Fields and close to the western bank; though no trace of Isildur's body was ever discovered. They were also then aware that Saruman had been secretly searching in the same region; but though he had not found the Ring (which had long before been carried off), they did not yet know what else he might have discovered.
But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm...

The sentence says "as the war of the ring approached" but at this point in the narrative, the war of the ring is already over. It also references the Council of Elrond well after the actual Council takes place. If you guys agree to moving it, I have a spot in the "Treason of Isengard" chapter where I think it is more appropriate; I can post it there.

3)

ETA-SL-15 <Appendix A Our King, we {call}called {him}King Elessar...

Is this any other instance we use the first-person, like this? Something which is clearly from the perspective of the hobbits. I know our work is theoretically based on something from an in-universe author, but I'm not sure we should explicitly keep first-person references like "I" or "we".

4) Typos:

He was sitting at the old well-worn, desk

This comma shouldn't be there.

There is now no snip that would bear

"ship"

5) I haven't read "The New Shadow" chapter yet, but I think Arcus' suggestion for the ending makes sense. Something like:

ETA-SL-26 <Appendix A Here ends this tale, as it has come to us {from the South}; and {with the passing of Evenstar} no more is said in this book of the days of old.>

I suppose it is "fan-fictional", but this entire project involves modifying and re-organizing Tolkien's words in a way he never intended. Maybe this is slightly self-indulgent, but I like how "as it has come to us" could have a double meaning: how it came to Tolkien from the elves/men/hobbits, and how it has come to us (i.e. the people editing "Translations from the Elvish").

[ArcusCalion]

1) Fin pointed out that the statements are not a contradiction. Saruman was also good for a time, and no doubt did much to prevent Sauron from gaining more power. However, he fell after some time. The same is equally possible of the Blue Wizards. This coupled with the vague language combines to make the two differing statements not contradictory.

2) Put your suggestion in that thread. I'm open to moving it.

3) This is the only other place where this occurs. We changed the similar statements in earlier chapters, so we should no doubt do so here.

4) Good catches!

5) I didn't think it was out of place in this chapter to be honest. I consider The Black Years and The Fading Years to be the last two parts continuing the narrative of the Quenta Silmarillion and the Atanatarion. Having this at the end of the work lends the whole thing a sense of finality and conclusion that I think is nice to have. The New Shadow is by its very incomplete nature a clearly unusual text, and must be dated later than the compilation of the previous texts. But it is definitely a debatable issue.
As for the argument that it is 'fanfiction-y,' then I must agree with gandalf here. By this definition, the whole project is fanfiction-y. But as it is a small thing, there is no reason to debate too long on it.

[Findegil]

1) For me there is no contradiction here. We have 2 other examples of failed Istari: Saruman and Radagast. Both had helped the ‘West’ in the beginning of their labour: Radagast by providing things like help of Eagels and other beast and birds as scouts (that these were misused in the end by Saruman can not be blaim on him), and Saruman by leading the White Council, providing knowledge about the Rings, and last but least as military ‘commander’ (e.g. Isengard as important point in the defence of the ‘West’ and the plans for the attack on Dol Guldur). And jet both did fall short of the aim they had taken on themself as Istari: Radagast by more or less neglegting the mission, Saruman at first by his own abbitions to become supreme leader and then by complete turn over to the enemy side.
For the Blue Wizards the reported positive effects are stiring rebellion against Sauron, weakening and disarraying the forces of the East. Like Saruman in the case of the Dol Guldur attack, these effects could have been archived even without staying true to the original mission. But any how they were rather archieved in times (long) before the War of the Ring, so that they could as well have been archieved with the best intention and jet in the crucial moment the Blue Wizards could have fallen from the high task, and thus failed in the overall picture given in this passage.

2) What is out of place is only the first paragraph. The passage from ‘But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm ...’ fits here very well. I agree to remove this fist paragraph here, go ahead and post the place in ‘The treason of Isnegard’.

3) I agree that we have to chang the sentence. So what about this:

ETA-SL-15b<Appendix A ‘Our King’, {we call him}the Hobbits called King Elessar; and when he {comes}came north to his house in Annúminas restored and {stays}stayed for a while by Lake Evendim, ...

4) Thanks for point these out.

5) Let us discuss that in the appropriate place.

Letter 244: I think we should consider placing the entire letter in this chapter and remove the snippet just put in The War of the Ring. What do you think of this placement and editing:

ETA-SL-09b<HoME 12: TY4{It is said also that in}In 3020 Éowyn Éomund's daughter wedded Faramir, last Steward of Gondor and first Prince of Ithilien, in the king's house of Rohan. ETA-SL-09<Letter 244{Also she}She was not herself ambitious in the true political sense. Though not a 'dry nurse' in temper, she was also not really a soldier or 'amazon', but like many brave women was capable of great military gallantry at a crisis.
{I think you misunderstand Faramir.}moved from below<{I think he}Faramir understood Eowyn very well. >He was daunted by his father: not only in the ordinary way of a family with a stern proud father of great force of character, but as a Númenórean before the chief of the one surviving Númenórean state. He was motherless and sisterless (Eowyn was also motherless), and had a 'bossy' brother. He had been accustomed to giving way and not giving his own opinions air, while retaining a power of command among men, such as a man may obtain who is evidently personally courageous and decisive, but also modest, fair-minded and scrupulously just, and very merciful. {I think he understood Eowyn very well. Also to be}He became Prince of Ithilien, the greatest noble after Dol Amroth in the revived Númenórean state of Gondor, soon to be of imperial power and prestige{, was not a 'market-garden job' as you term it}. Until much had been done by the restored King, the {P.}/Prince/ of Ithilien {would be}was the resident march-warden of Gondor, in its main eastward outpost – and also {would have}had many duties in rehabilitating the lost territory, and clearing it of outlaws and orc-remnants, not to speak of the dreadful vale of Minas Ithil (Morgul). {I did not, naturally, go into details about the way in which Aragorn, as King of Gondor, would govern the realm. But it was made}It is clear that there was much fighting, and in the earlier years of {A.}/Aragorn/'s reign: expeditions against enemies in the East. The chief commanders, under the King, {would be}were Faramir and Imrahil; and one of these {would }normally {remain}remained a military commander at home in the King's absence. A Númenórean King was monarch, with the power of unquestioned decision in debate; but he governed the realm with the frame of ancient law, of which he was administrator (and interpreter) but not the maker. In all debatable matters of importance domestic, or external, however, even Denethor had a Council, and at least listened to what the Lords of the Fiefs and the Captains of the Forces had to say. Aragorn re-established the Great Council of Gondor, and in that Faramir, who remained by inheritance the Steward (or representative of the King during his absence abroad, or sickness, or between his death and the accession of his heir) would {[}be{]} the chief counsellor.
>ETA-SL-09.X<HoME 12: TY4 Éomer {her}Éowyn’s brother received the kingship upon the field of battle from Théoden ere he died. ...

Interristing as it is, I think, the rest of the letter is unusable for as, since it deals with the love story of Éowyn with Aragorn and Faramir, which is not given any room in our version.

And one other small point:
ETA-SL-16.2 and ETA-SL-18: I think we must keep a bit more of these. As it stands we mention that the Fairbrains lived for generation in Undertowers, but we did not mention who they are. And in the end we leave Rose out of the picture, which could mean to our reader that Sam left his wife behind, which was not the case, and which would be fully out of charachter.

ETA-SL-16.2<Appendix B In the year 1451 Shire reckoning Elanor the Fair {marries}married Fastred of Greenholm on the Far Downs.{
1452 The} In the following year the Westmarch, from the Far Downs to the Tower Hills (Emyn Beraid), {is}was added to the Shire by the gift of the King. Many hobbits {remove}removed to it. ETA-SL-16.3{
1454}Two years later Elfstan Fairbairn, son of Fastred and Elanor, {is}was born.{
1455 Master Samwise becomes Mayor for the fifth time.} At {his}the request of Master Samwise, the Mayor the Thain {makes}made Fastred Warden of Westmarch. Fastred and Elanor {make}made their dwelling at Undertowers on the Tower Hills, where their descendants, the Fairbairns of the Towers, dwelt for many generations.>
ETA-SL-18b<Appendix B On Mid-year’s Day 1482 Shire Reckoning{Death of} Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, {on Mid-year's Day}died. On September {22}the twenty-second, Master Samwise {rides}rode out from Bag End. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

3) Agreed.

Letter: well done Fin! This fits well here. Agreed.

Other point: Agreed as well.