Ambarkanta

[gandalf85]

One general question before getting into specifics. Have we considered including some of Tolkien's maps into the text? This chapter in particular is very hard to follow without the maps published in HoME IV.

This chapter is indeed rather tricky. It seems there are two extreme approaches: try to make everything completely consistent or allow contradictions (which would mostly be due to the limited knowledge of the original authors -- as Arcus mentioned, Tolkien himself expressed this idea in Myths Transformed). I think we should try to take a middle approach: make the text consistent when it is clear what Tolkien's later conception is and the change to the text is minor. We should avoiding doing major violence to the text.

I agree that Gondowe's "now" does not help. If anything, it just adds more questions: what exactly changed? Melkor escaping out of Arda and not out of Ea makes the most sense. But it raises the question of what the Walls of the World/Walls of Night enclose: Arda or all of Ea? I have not gotten to reviewing the main text of the Silmarillion yet: in our text does Melkor return "over the Walls of the Night" in our text as it is in the published Silmarillion? According to the encyclopedia of Arda, Christopher offers the suggestion of there being two walls in HoME 10 (I cannot find the passage it is referring to, I will continue looking): http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wallsoftheworld.html. If we keep the fact that Melkor returned to Arda "over the Walls of the Night," the idea of two walls is the only thing that makes sense. When the Door of Night is created and Melkor is expelled, he is sent outside of the outer walls which enclose Ea. I don't think it's a good idea to try to change the text to reflect the idea of two sets of walls; instead, we should leave the text as is and chalk it up to the in-universe author having imperfect knowledge.

Other specific points:

I agree with Gondowe and Fin that the fall of the lamps is what causes the creation of the lakes.

Gondowe brought up the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth. The idea of these gates seem like they would cause problems with the idea that the only way out of the Walls of the World is through the Door of Night. I don't know whether we should simply keep the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth or remove it.

There is another question of how the Valar entered into Ea in the first place if the Walls are impenetrable. I think they received the assistance of Eru in this, but upon entering Ea they were bound to it. I do not have any evidence in the text itself, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Fin's concerns about whether the Ambarkanta describes Arda or all of Ea and how this conception could possibly turn into our modern cosmos are legitimate concerns. I think Tolkien's idea of the in-universe author of the Ambarkanta having imperfect knowledge is the best path forward.

One last thing, it looks like Arcus made one change but forgot to post it on the forum. It is similar to what Gondowe proposed about the fall of the lamps creating the seas:

Amb-08 But [Melkor assailed] the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5 {melting of the ice}[ruin of the lamps] made two small inland seas

I like this change.

[ArcusCalion]

Let me respond to each of you separately

Fin

I agree that gondowe's "now" does not help, and I agree with the summary of the issue you've laid out. To me it seems that A) is our best option, since to make the interior spaces larger would be immensely difficult from a logical standpoint and from a narrative one. I think our best bet is to assume that the entire work treats mostly with Arda, since that, to me, is the only way that the cosmology makes sense.

About ur points:
- If we go with A) then the ice can be said to reach out to the walls of the world, which is supposed to be an example of the Helcaraxe.
- Did you mean Vilya? In this case I agree, since Melkor passes through it without the aid of Manwe.
- The chasm of Ilmen is also said to be between the shores of Valinor and the sea of Ekkaia in the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor when it describes the Moon sailing over Valinor and plunging into the chasm of Ilmen and chasing the stars beneath the world. But I agree it is an odd concept and a difficult one to understand.
- I agree now about the lakes, and as gandalf said I added in that change in keeping with this idea.

gandalf

Our text does indeed say this, and it is part and parcel with these comments we need to address. It is indeed possible that the Walls of Night are different from the Walls of the World, but I do not think so. In any case this does not solve the issue. Melkor must be able to pass through the Walls of Night at will, but when he is thrust out of the Doors of Night (supposedly in the Walls of the World) he cannot return. This would lend one to think thus: 1) the walls of the world and the walls of night are different. 2) the walls of night enclose Arda while the walls of the world enclose Ea. 3) Melkor was thus thrust out of Ea which is why he cannot return. However, Tolkien explicitly says this is impossible, since no being can leave Ea until the End, as it is part and parcel with their nature that they are bound to Creation, except Men, who are strange. Therefore our neat vision is wrecked. We must seek other solutions:

1) This was a special case of Eru allowing it for the good of Arda
- This would allow the neatest answer, since we would need to make no changes to the text, and would simply (as gandalf suggests) allow the reader to interpret the existence of two walls and chalk any confusion up to in-universe author imperfection. However, this is against the goals of the project. The whole project was designed to answer the question "What is canon?" therefore, leaving things that are wrong and chalking it up to in-universe error goes against the project's goals. That being said, the idea that Eru gave some special dispensation is possible, and we cannot outright discount it.
2) The two walls are different, and the building of the Door of Night is significant because it prevents reentry through the Wall of Night (around Arda), not because it opens through an impassable wall.
- This one would solve the issue of the Valar passing over/through the Walls of Night to enter Arda. If we make them just enclose Arda, then the Valar can pass through them no problem, with the Walls of the World around Ea being the impassable ones. We can thus change every reference to the Walls of the World relating to Valinor or the distance from the land of Arda to the Walls of Night. The Door of Night could be significant because it prevents Melkor's reentry, not because it opens on the Void outside of Ea. The issue with this approach is that it is invented, but to be honest, the idea of there being two walls is in itself invented, and Tolkien must forgive us some clever invention to make this cosmology work.

As for the other points:
- Agreed with Fin about gondowe's change
- I think we must leave them in because the Akallabeth is a very late source compared to this, so to remove it from there is something serious. I think we must try to include them if possible.
- I think you are right in that Eru allowed them to enter Ea for the first time. We do not need to specify this.
- If we take the Ambarcanta to only describe Arda, then it does not make the transition to our cosmology impossible. Once Valinor is removed 'into the realm of hidden things,' we can assume that Vaiya went with it. Then Ilmen becomes open to the spaces of Ea, enclosed within the Walls of Night (preventing Melkor from returning to Arda). But this allows the Sun and Moon to expand into Ea as well as other heavenly bodies which might have been in Ilmen previously. Ilmen then simly becomes our upper atmosphere. It makes enough sense that it shouldn't cause too much concern.
- Thank you for posting this change, it slipped my mind!

[Findegil]

I think we should update completely how we want to update this chapter.

Amb-01{Ambrakanta}[Ambracanta]
Of the Fashion of the World
Rúmil
Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.
Amb-02.2<MT, Text II The Stars{, therefore,} in general {will be}are other and remoter parts of the Great Tale of Eä, which do not concern the Valar of Arda. Though{, even if not explicitly, it will be an underlying assumption that} the Kingdom of Arda is of central importance, selected amid all the immeasurable vast of Eä as the scene for the main drama of the conflict of Melkor with Ilúvatar, and the Children of Eru. Melkor is the supreme spirit of Pride and Revolt, not just the chief Vala of the Earth, who has turned to evil.>
Amb-02.3<Ainulindalë{§23 So began their great labours in}In these wastes unmeasured and unexplored{, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time} and in the midst of the vast halls of {the }Eä there {came to be that hour and }lay that place where was {made }the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. >Amb-02.4 Within {these}the walls[ of Night] the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial additon and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo. … But in the North and South, where there is most cold and darkness and Middle-earth extends nigh to the Walls of Amb-03.5{the World}[Night], Vaiya and Vista and Ilmen flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light. … for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial additon newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.
From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya, which is very thin and cold. … The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of Amb-05.5{the World}[Night]. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, … and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo the stars are sometimes hidden, … and when she sinks behind the Mountains of Valinor it is evening.
But days are otherwise in Valinor than in Middle-earth. … and the {Gods}[Valar] smile remembering the mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2{when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, … and they spilled into the chasm, and them waterfalls became ice and bridges of ice because of the cold; so that the chasm of Ilmen was here closed and bridged, and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of Amb-06.5{the World}[Night].

Now it is said that the Valar coming into the World descended first upon Middle-earth at its center, save {Melko}[Melkor] who descended in the furthest North. Amb-07{But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the Western Sea and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. As is told they desired to make lamps, and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}they set up {these }great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while. Amb-07.1b <Moved from above But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in {the Western Sea}[a Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World.>

Amb-08b But <editorial addition Melkor assailed> the pillars{ were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5b{melting of the ice}[fall of the pillars of the Lamps] made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. … That to the North is {Eruman}[Araman], and that to the South is {Arvalin}[Avathar]; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice.
For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-earth at the center and crowded it eastward, … across the seas which divide them from the shores of Middle-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land caused also mountains to appear in four ranges, … and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle land there were the Mountains of the Wind, … But {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] where Oromë found the Elves is to the North beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].
But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken in the Amb-09.1b{first Battle of the Gods,}[War of the Powers] when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko}[Melkor]’s stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of Ringil (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas.
And the Earth was again broken in Amb-11.1{the second battle}[the War of Wrath], when {Melko}[Melkor] was again overthrown, and it has changed ever in the wearing and passing of many ages. But the greatest change took place, when the First Design was destroyed, and the Earth was rounded, and severed from Valinor. This befell in the days of the assault of the Númenóreans upon the land of the {Gods}[Valar], as is told in the Histories. And since that time the world has forgotten the things that were before, and the names and the memory of the lands and waters of old has perished.

Amb-01: I agree to these up date.

Amb-02: When we change {Ilurambar}[Eärambar] (as we should) then we talk here about the outer fence of Eä. And that we should make clear.

Amb-02.1: This was the addition of ‘now’ that gondowe suggested, but we all found not adequate.

Amb-02.2 to Amb-02.4: I adde here a parts from MT, Text II and Ainulindalë and edited them to fit the circumference. Then I change the reference from the Walls of the World to the Walls of Night. I think that we should follow here Christopher Tolkien’s suggestion of two walls which is found in his discussion The Annals of Aman.

Amb-03: I agree to this addition.

Amb-03.5, Amb-05.5 & Amb-06.5: Again this must be the Wall of Night.

Amb-04: This is a good idea, how to deal with the different stars.

Amb-05: I again agree to this change.

Amb-06: Mybe we should think about the Door of Night a little bit less in physical sense. Anyhow if it opens to the Void outside Eä then it must be a transcending thing rather then a physical door. But such an opening into another ‘dimension of being’ might be anywhere (since the Void has anyhow nothing corresponding to the dimensions of our space). So the door might have a kind of double function: opened in the one ‘way’ it led out of Arda, but open in another ‘way’ know only to the great Valar that made the Door it will led out of time and space into the Void out side Eä. At least in that way we could argue. On the other hand we have this passage from MT: “We read that he[Morgoth] was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately[footnote to the text Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ëa, with the conception of vast spaces within Ëa, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).] to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.“ Thus the Door might simply lead out of Arda and as Morgoth left by his own choice a special protection against he return might simply not be necessary for a very long time (until Dagor Dagorath).

Amb-06.2: I agree to this change suggested by gondowe.

Amb-07 & Amb-07.1b: As the sequence change in the history, we should chang it here as well, as gondowe suggested. In addition I think we should change {the Western Sea}[a Great Lake] (using the unspecific articel).

Amb-08b & Amb-08.5b: ArcusCalion edition looks simpler to me, but I think we should be more specific what caused the building or sees.

Amb-09: I think we all agree to the addition of the Hithaeglir.

Amb-09.1b & Amb-11.1b: As these Battles are named in the later stages of the legendarium we should us these names here.

Amb-10 & Amb-11: I would very much like to have a smother editings for these changes, but I couldn’t find them for the time being.

Diagrams and Maps: Yes, if we can manage we will include them.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Amb-06bWalls of {the World}Night; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon Amb-06.1the Voids of Eä. {For the World}But Eä is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door when {Melko}[Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

[gandalf85]

Amb-02.2 and Amb-02.3 are great additions which definitely clear things up! Well done Fin!

To markings I do not comment on, I agree to Fin's construction.

Amb-02 and Amb-06 I am OK with this, but we need to be careful. Are we using "The World" as a synonym for Ea? After all, we translate Eärambar (literally "walls of Ea") as Walls of the World. Later we say things like "Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South." and "...Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth." To me it seems clear in these sentences that "the World" is referring to Arda and not Ea. Later we say "The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world..." Are we making a distinction between capitalized "World" and lower-case "world"? I also think we have a problem with Melkor returning "over the Walls of Night" in the main narrative if here we state the Door of Night was created to thrust Melkor out into Ea. If Earendil is guarding the Door of Night, why doesn't Melkor simply return "over the Walls of Night" like he did before? Also, are we going to keep the reference to the Gates of Morning in the Akallabeth and not refer to them here? If so, are we supposing these Gates are in the Wall of Night?

Amb-06.2 I do not understand the reason for this change either.

Amb-08.5b For some reason "the fall of the pillars of the lamps" does not sound Tolkienian to me. I think "run of the lamps" is fine.

Diagrams and maps I agree that editing them is outside the scope of the project, although that would be an interesting project to undertake. Most maps/diagrams I've seen are clearly not aiming for accuracy (except for the most part Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps) and do not show the entirety of Ea.

Amb-09 Yes, we should definitely include the Hithaeglir. It looks like Arcus made a small change and forgot to post it here, I have renamed it Amb-09b:

Amb-09b <LQ 1 {But the}[And yet other] mountains were the Hithaeglir...

I think the addition of "yet" helps it flow a bit better.

Also, Fin, the title should be "Ambarcanta," not "Ambracanta".

[ArcusCalion]

Amb-02/06: This is indeed a dilemma. Perhaps we could change Walls of the World to Walls of Creation. Because, as you say, 'the world' seems to refer to Arda, not Ea as a whole. Tolkien himself proposed the {Ilurambar}[Earambar] change, so I think a translation of this as Walls of Creation is certainly possible. Or we could simply say 'Walls of Ea'. As for Door of Night, as Fin says we must think of this more as a metaphysical barrier, having perhaps an anchor at a physical point, but its use is to keep Melkor out, as exemplified by the line about Earendil watching over it. We cannot further clarify this without essentially introducing fanfiction, and I think there is enough information at the moment for the reader to infer an explanation. As for the Gates of Morning, I have recently added them to my private draft of the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, and I can discuss them in that place when it comes time to review that chapter once more with Aiwendil.

[Findegil]

Amb-02; about all the World => about all Eä: I thought about that change as well, but found it awakward to have “About all Eä are the Eärambar, or Walls of the World.” But in the end it does not really matter if we double Eä or World in this sentence.

World = Eä; world = Arda: I am nit sure if this can be our solution. JRR Tolkien was very unspecific in his usage of the word ‘World’ (equily if big or small case). We either can live with his unspecific usage or we must go through all case where he uses the word and decised what to do – a huge work but not impossible. But it would be changes for clearness only and the unclearness was not created by our editing. So fare the project avoided such bettering of JRR Tolkien’s works.

Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I think we must not be more correct here then JRR Tolkien was. For the Ainur the Walls of Night are not really a barrier. The Walls are concifed as such a barrier for anythink else within Arda. From what we hear about them one could assume that they are a kind over dimensional soup bowl, filled with Ekkaia. But the rim is a good deal above the water surface plane (as it should always be in a good kitchen). Thus Melkor could easily go over the top and came down into Arda.
I said before that probably Morogth after his defeat at the end of the First Age has no mind to return to Arda as long as he does not see a new chance for himself to win the fight against Manwë and his allies. In MT we hear that Melkor dissipated himself into all the matter of Middle-Earth. Thus part of his being could not be removed and would work farther for his case, what so ever the Valar did. And we hear in MT that Morgoth incontrast to Sauron could grow again. So we might expect him to come back in Dagor Dagorath but not earlier.

Gates of Morning: Akalabêth does not specifiy what it was that the Númenoreans saw. It could be a pass in the Walls of the Sun. Anyhow that mountain range would prevent the sailors to see Gate of Morning if it was a in Walls of Night.

Amb-06: I think if we take AcrusCalions point of view, which is a decent decision, we have to remove some of the attributes of Ando Lómen:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of Amb-06c{the World}[Night]; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Amb-06.05{Timeless }Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon the Amb-06.1b{Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time}<MT vast <editorial addition empty >spaces within Ëa>. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2{when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

Amb-06.1b: I think we should remove the reference to Kuma, the Void, here, because with that we would only farther the confusion. I think we should move it and as we use the Doors of Night here we have to remove them earlier:

Amb-02b<moved from bellow{For the}The World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed Amb-02.05{, save by the Door of Night}.

Amb-06.2: What gondowe refers to is that Earendil is already sailing in Ilmen before Morgothe was thrust through the Door of Night, so that it might be that the Valar had made the Door ready before Eonwë marched against Morgoth.

Amb-08.5b: But the ruin of the Lamps did creat great burnings. What about removing the Lamps:

Amb-08b But <editorial addition Melkor assailed> the pillars{ were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5c{melting of the ice}[fall of the pillars] made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land.

Diagrams and Maps: I think we have to edit them and that is why I said if we can manage it. Of course we are not going to make an elaborated Altas like Karen Wynn Fonstad, but must clear them from issues we have identified here, and we probably have to include some missing features like the Hithaeglir (which is of course the most problematic part).

Amb-09b: Agreed.

{Ambrakanta}[Ambarcanta]: Thanks for pointing this out.

Respcetfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

World: I think to impose the World = Ea; world = Arda distinction is artificial and too needlessly editorial. How is this:

Amb-02 <moved from below {For the World}The Creation, Eä, is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all {the World}Eä are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of {the World}Creation.

I agree to the rest of them Fin, they look wonderful.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing: This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

As per the Myths Transformed, Morgoth's spirit (after his body was executed by Mandos himself) was 100% thrown out of Ea - outside of Time and Space even:

Morgoth was thus actually 'made captive in physical form' and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and 'executed': that is 'killed' like one of the Incarnates.

But the most pertinent part of this discussion comes from just a few lines below the above quote:

We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

*[footnote to the text]: Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

All of these quotes come from Morgoth's Ring, 'Myths Transformed', Text VII, p. 403


While I'm well aware that the cosmology in the MT is profoundly different than that in the Ambarkanta, I still think we should keep some of these passages - especially Morgoth's banishment outside of Time and Space (i.e. the metaphysical Void, and not just the outer space), even though I'm in favor of having a faaaar larger Ea (that is, space outside of Arda).


Of course, we should delete the references to the Solar System and such.

[ArcusCalion]

It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru.

What makes you think that Eru DIDN'T intervene here? Eru is all-powerful, and an event such as Morgoth's execution and the defeat/decline of his spirit to the point of his core fea becoming a minute shell of his former greatness, would surely be enough to warrant Eru's involvement - to one degree or another.

Also, that footnote implies the exact opposite of what you said - it was the Men who thought that Morgoth was yeeted into space, while most of the Elves knew better.