Lambion Ontalë

[ArcusCalion]

LO-04: He changed the sense in which he meant the term. In Appendix F, he uses 'elf-latin' to refer to its quality as a language of lore and antiquity. But here he uses it to refer to its quality as a common tongue between various peoples, as Latin was for the christians in middle-ages Europe. Therefore I changed it. In addition, Appendix F is written from the Point of view of Tolkien the professor, whereas the Lambion Ontale is written from the point of view of Pengolodh of gondolin, who would of course have no such word as 'elf-latin.'

LO-05: I do not see how this could be what he meant. At the time this was written, he had invented no 'Sindarin' as we know it. To him it was an unknown language. That is what he refers to. In addition, we now know a great deal about its development, so we can hardly say not much was known about that either.

LO-3.5/12: We have this quote from Q&E:

Pengolodh is said to have remained in Middle-earth until far on into the Second Age for the furtherance of his enquiries, and for a while to have dwelt among the Dwarves of Casarrondo (Khazad-dûm). But when the shadow of Sauron fell upon Eriador, he left Middle-earth, the last of the Lambengolmor, and sailed to Eressëa, where maybe he still abides.

as well as this:

Our knowledge [Footnote: By which Pengolodh meant the knowledge available in Middle-earth. The Lammas was composed in Eriador.] is therefore now limited ...

Both of these require that the Lammas be composed in Eriador before the end of the Second Age.

LO-18: I think I am confused by your question. Here is the original version of the text:

Yet in fact the Noldor, and especially the loremasters among them (for the Noldor have no rivals in learning) use both sounds and forms that are more archaic and nearer to the written Parmaquesta. This is true especially in the matter of pronunciation, since the usage of the Vanyar shows the effect of the changes in their daily speech of later days.

and here is the updated version:

And in fact the Vanyar, and the loremasters among the Noldor (for the Noldor have no rivals in learning) use both sounds and forms that are more archaic and nearer to the written Parmaquesta. This is true especially in the matter of pronunciation, since the usage of the Noldor shows the effect of the changes in their daily speech of later days.

The Vanyar kept to the older sound and form of the language. The loremasters of the Noldor did as well, as they were interested in preserving the original tongue. However, the daily speech of the Noldor drew more towards the Teleri. Hopefully this clears it up?

LO-21: Good point, I agree to only remove 'much.'

LO-24: Very well, but I think we should change 'language' to 'languages' due to the fact that both Quenya and Sindarin were spoken there:

LO-24 The languages of the returned Exiles in Eressëa {is}are derived in the main from the {speech}tongues of Gondolin. So also was the Elvish speech adopted by the Atani, the Fathers of Men, and spoken by the high men of Númenor in that isle LO-25 {, and after during the Third Age upon the western shores of Middle-earth}.

I changed speech to tongues because 'speeches' is not used in that way generally in my experiences, but perhaps I am wrong and it should simply be 'speeches'.

LO-28b: Agreed.

LO-32: You are correct, I had not considered this. I will leave it as is.

LO-40: Perhaps 'children'? 'People' makes me think of those elves who stayed behind with Finarfin in Valinor.

LO-54: That's true, but we are told explicitly that the Edain were the ones who founded Numenor, and they were given the island because they fought in the war of wrath. Therefore, Adunaic must be derived from them.

LO-55: Yeah I am inclined to remove it.

Last Point: I had not thought of this, but it is true that portions of Appendix F might fit nicely in here. However, we would need to be selective, since Appendix F is largely focused on the issue of 'translation' from these languages into English, and so is often outside the scope of the Lammas. But any information on Westron from there would fit nicely into this work.

[gandalf85]

To those comments I don't respond to, I agree.

LO-18: OK, I get it now.

LO-40: I think "children of Finarfin" is probably the safest choice. Although I do like the sound of "Finarfinians".

LO-54: Then I think the only explanation must be that not all Men abandoned the language. The addition of "many" makes this more clear.

I added in parts Appendix F; almost all of the changes are references to events/people/places in the Third Age. There is lots of good stuff, it would seem a shame if we didn't use it anywhere. The section in Appendix F on Elves is a summary of what is included here, and the section on the Dwarves explicitly talks about their relationship with Men in the Third Age (or is a repeat of what is already included here). I propose adding this to the end of what you already have:

< LO-55 Appendix F The Westron was a Mannish speech...against the Dark Power of the North.
After the overthrow of the Dark Power...the Kings of Men, whom the Elves called the Dúnedain.
The Dúnedain alone of all races of Men knew and spoke an Elvish tongue; for their forefathers had learned the Sindarin tongue, and this they handed on to their children as a matter of lore, changing little with the passing of the years. And their men of wisdom learned also the High-elven Quenya and esteemed it above all other tongues, and in it they made names for many places of fame and reverence, and for many men of royalty and great renown. [Footnote: Quenya, for example, are the names Númenor (or in full Númenóre), and Elendil, Isildur, and Anárion LO-56 .{, and all the royal names of Gondor, including Elessar ‘Elfstone’. Most of the names of the other men and women of the Dúnedain, such as Aragorn, Denethor, Gilraen are of Sindarin form, being often the names of Elves or Men remembered in the songs and histories of the First Age (as Beren, Húrin). Some few are of mixed forms, as Boromir.}]
But the native speech of the Númenóreans remained for the most part...spread thence along the coasts among all that had dealings with Westernesse.
After the Downfall of Númenor, ...In the days of the Númenórean kings this ennobled Westron speech spread far and wide, even among their enemies; and it became used more and more by the Dúnedain themselves LO-57{, so that at the time of the War of the Ring the elven-tongue was known to only a small part of the peoples of Gondor, and spoken daily by fewer. These dwelt mostly in Minas Tirith and the townlands adjacent, and in the land of the tributary princes of Dol Amroth.} Yet the names of nearly all places and persons in the realm of Gondor were of Elvish form and meaning. A few were of forgotten origin, and descended doubtless from the days before the ships of the Númenóreans sailed the Sea; among these were Umbar, Arnach and Erech; and the mountain-names Eilenach and Rimmon. Forlong was also a name of the same sort.
Most of the Men of the northern regions of the West-lands were descended from the Edain of the First Age, or from their close kin. Their languages were, therefore, related to the Adûnaic, and some still preserved a likeness to the Common Speech. Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood; and further north and east the Men of the Long Lake and of Dale. LO-58 {From the lands between the Gladden and the Carrock came the folk that were known in Gondor as the Rohirrim, Masters of Horses. They still spoke their ancestral tongue, and gave new names in it to nearly all the places in their new country; and they called themselves the Eorlings, or the Men of the Riddermark. But the lords of that people used the Common Speech freely, and spoke it nobly after the manner of their allies in Gondor; for in Gondor whence it came the Westron kept still a more gracious and antique style. }
Wholly alien was the speech of the Wild Men of Drúadan Forest. Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. LO-59 {The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin.} But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain LO-60 .{, hating the Rohirrim.}
LO-61 {Of their language nothing appears in this book, save the name Forgoil which they gave to the Rohirrim (meaning Strawheads, it is said). Dunland and Dunlending are the names that the Rohirrim gave to them, because they were swarthy and dark-haired; there is thus no connexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn ‘west’.}

LO-62 {The most ancient people surviving in the Third Age were the Onodrim or Enyd. Ent was the form of their name in the language of Rohan. They}Ents were known to the Eldar in ancient days...but they had no need to keep it secret, for no others could learn it.
Ents were, however, themselves skilled in tongues, learning them swiftly and never forgetting them. But they preferred the languages of the Eldar, and loved best the ancient High-elven tongue. LO-63 {The strange words and names that the Hobbits record as used by Treebeard and other Ents are thus Elvish, or fragments of Elf-speech strung together in Ent-fashion. 1 Some are Quenya: as Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor, which may be rendered ‘Forestmanyshadowed-deepvalleyblack Deepvalleyforested Gloomyland’, and by which Treebeard meant, more or less: ‘there is a black shadow in the deep dales of the forest’. Some are Sindarin: as Fangorn ‘beard-(of)-tree’, or Fimbrethil ‘slender-beech’. }

Orc is the form of the name that other races had for this foul people LO-64 .{as it was in the language of Rohan.} In Sindarin it was orch. LO-65 {Related, no doubt, was the word uruk of the Black Speech, though this was applied as a rule only to the great soldier-orcs that at this time issued from Mordor and Isengard. The lesser kinds were called, especially by the Urukhai, snaga ‘slave’. }
The Orcs were first bred by the Dark Power of the North in the Elder Days...so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes.
LO-66 {So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains, had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish. In this jargon tark, ‘man of Gondor’, was a debased form of tarkil, a Quenya word used in Westron for one of Númenórean descent; see p. 1185. }
It is said that the Black Speech was devised by Sauron in the Dark Years, and that he had desired to make it the language of all those that served him, but he failed in that purpose. From the Black Speech, however, were derived many of the words that were in LO-67 {the Third Age}later days wide-spread among the Orcs, such as ghâsh ‘fire’, but after the first overthrow of Sauron this language in its ancient form was forgotten by all but the Nazgûl. When Sauron arose again, it became once more the language of Barad-dûr and of the captains of Mordor. LO-68 {The inscription on the Ring was in the ancient Black Speech, while the curse of the Mordor orc on p. 579 was in the more debased form used by the soldiers of the Dark Tower, of whom Grishnákh was the captain. Sharkû in that tongue means old man.}

LO-69 {Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog.} In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, {these}trolls were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness. Trolls therefore took such language as they could master from the Orcs; and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech.
LO-70 {But at the end of the Third Age a troll-race not before seen appeared in southern Mirkwood and in the mountain borders of Mordor. Olog-hai they were called in the Black Speech. That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them. They spoke little, and the only tongue that they knew was the Black Speech of Barad-dûr.}

LO-56: These names wouldn't be known in the Second Age.

LO-57: Reference to the War of the Ring

LO-58: The Rohirrim don't appear in the histories until the Third Age.

LO-59: The Dead Men of Dunharrow refers to a people of the Third Age.

LO-60-62, 64: References to the Rohirrim.

LO-63: Explanation of words used in LotR

LO-65: Uruk-hai don't appear until the Third Age.

LO-66-68,70: Third age stuff

LO-69: Explanation of the usage of the word "Troll"

It seems that the decision to make this work The Lammas is somewhat restricting since we can't include anything about the Third Age. Could we say in LH-01 that this is "based on" or "derived from" the in-universe 'Account of Tongues'?

[ArcusCalion]

I see the issue with this being 'the Lammas.' This is something we must discuss as a group. Personally, I am open to the idea of being more vague in the language, since we know we do not have the full Lammas, since Q&E is said to be Aelfwine's summary of a part of the Lammas, and the Osanwe-Kenta is said to be his summary of a part of it as well where Pengolodh talks about osanwe. However, even if this was a summary of the Lammas and not the true thing, it would still not include Third Age stuff. Buuuut we have put information out of time in other areas so I am torn. I would like Fin's opinion on this.

As to the addition, it looks good at the moment. We may need to look into HoME 12 to see if there are any expansions that can be made, since there is much that relates to the formation of Appendix F there.

[gandalf85]

I'm not saying ours would be a summary of an in-universe Lammas, but that it would be based on the in-universe text. In which case additional material about the Third Age has been added to it. Maybe by Bilbo himself later in the Third Age. It feels incomplete as a document discussing the history and evolution of the languages without giving the full picture, i.e. Third Age stuff. I will see if there's anything from HoME 12 we could include.

[Findegil]

At long last I found some time to review this chapter. Solid work, ArcusCalion! To everythings I do not comment I agree.
About our text and it’s in Univers history: We have long since left behind the idea that what we creat could claim any kind of existence in Arda of the earlier Ages (let’s say anthing before the change from the Sixth to the Seventh Age of the Sun). Therefore I would add more freely information that could not be known by Pengolodh.
But that means of course that we must change some things from the beginning of the Lammas. I will address all these change while going throught the text:

LO-01.5: At the start we have to tell what we consider our text to be:

This is LO-01.5<editorial addition mainly drawn from> the 'Account of Tongues' which {Pengolod}[Pengolodh] of Gondolin wrote in later days in LH-02{Tol-eressea}[Eriador], using the work of Rúmil the sage of {Tun}[Tirion]. LH-03{This account Ælfwine saw when he came into the West.}

DP-10b: I think we overlooked this:

... And so still it goes in Middle-earth. DP-10b{
Yet long since, Ælfwine, the fashion of the World was changed; and we that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of our being: so that now we preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless here at last in Eressëa our tongues are steadfast; and here over a wide sea of years we speak now still little otherwise than we did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.}

Sin Quentë Quengoldo
(Thus spoke {Pengoloð}[Pengolodh])
DP-10.5<moved from above
Yet {long since, Ælfwine,}[after Pengolodh left] the fashion of the World was changed; and DP-11{we}[those] that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of {our}[their] being: so that now {we}[they] preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless DP-11.5{here at last }in Eressëa {our}[their] tongues are steadfast; and {here}[there] over a wide sea of years {we}[they] speak now still little otherwise than {we}[they] did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.

LO-03b: I think under what is said above the remark about the ‘excerpt from another work’ must go.

… whence so ever derived, was their own and Elvish.[Footnote to the text: Quoth Rúmil. LO-03b{So Ælfwine notes. This passage seems an excerpt from another work.}]

LO-03.5b: In the view of what was said we should remove the ‘we’:

... together with such records of the Avari as LO-03.5b{we here}[where set down] in {Eressëa have set down}[Eriador] in {these }later days. ...

LO-06: Was not Danian here italic?

LO-10: Equally where Pengolodh is, he may know that Sindarin the daily speech on Tol Eressëa. Therefore I think the change is unnecessary from the start and with the changes we did to get free from Pengolodh’s view point it does not makes sence at all.

LO-11: I agree to this change. Tolkien thought of Eöl as an Avari, so it is not really believable that Pengolodh could not learn any thing about theire speech before he returned to Eressëa.

Before LO-17: ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language.’ This is ...’ must be ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language’. This is ...’.

LO-22.5: I think we should just for the reason of safety remove the great changes in Etya-noldorin:

... On the other hand Túnanoldorin or Túnarin[Footnote to the text: For after a while the Vanyar forsook Túna, and there only the Noldor dwelt.] is contemporary with Parmaquesta, and shows from the first LO-22[ not] much divergence from Quenya (and Telerin),[ but nonetheless] becoming already before the Exile a{ wholly} distinct {speech}[dialect], in which many of the LO-22.5{great }changes that took place during the Exile are foreshadowed.

LO-24b: I am okay with the change to plural, and I don’t know if ‘speeches’ is useable. If you, as a native speak, find that usage strange we probably should remove it.

LO-25: With the changes discussed above, this half-sentence should be kept.

LO-29: I would edit this a bit differently. The main cauldron for such mixing as is described here would be the Havens of Sirion, I guess. Therefore this would be my way to edit:

... For many of the {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] joined the hosts of the Noldo-chieftains; and in the days of defeat many of the Noldor took refuge LO-29b[ together ]with {Thingol in Doriath}[Sindar]. There were {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] of Doriath in the remnant that gathered under Eärendil at the Mouths of Sirion; and Eärendil drew his blood not only from Men, but also from both Noldor and {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar].

LO-32: I think this speaks about the death of Denethor in the first Battle of Beleriand. And I would keep it at that by this edit:

They were called the ‘Green-elves’ (Laiquendi in Quenya) by the other folk of Beleriand. After the LO-32b{ruin of their realm}[death of their leader] many took refuge with Thingol in Doriath, and thus record was there preserved of their ancient tongue, and is kept still, though incomplete, in Eressëa.

LO-37: I think we must remove the ‘well-nigh 3500 years of the Sun’:

It was indeed at the landing of Fëanor LO-37b{three hundred and sixty-five long years}[more than three long Ages] of the Valar since the Noldor had passed over the Sea and left the Sindar behind.{ Now that time was in length well-nigh as three thousand and five hundred years of the Sun. }In such {an age}[a time] the tongues of Men ...

LO-40: I think ‘House of Finrafin’ worls very well here.

LO-41: This is proberlbly over done. The Wars of Beleriand started before the rising of the Sun, so even if the the First Age of the Sun ended in the year 590 F.A. the period of mingling could be morer then 10 years longer. But we would thus specifiy that the Valian Year was more then 10 times longer then a Sun year. And since we should avoid that, I am okay with ArcusCalions edit to the old statement.

LO-42.5: What about a sub-heading before LO-43? I would say ‘Of other Races’ from LotR, Appendix F would fit here very well.

LO-46: I think we should keep the usage of the Runes into the Third Age.

Behind LO-54:
- Why did you add ‘the’ before Ered-Lindon? For me it reads strange.
- Why did you change Uldor to Ulfang?

Addition from Appendix F: Oops! These editing markers by gandalf85 deteriorate the numbering by ArcusCalion! Many of them are thus doubled! To avoid this we should name all the markers for this addition LO-AF-zz, but keep the once established number (thus staring with LO-AF-55 and ending with LO-AF-70, so fare).

In these additions there is a lot of Italic to be added.

LO-AF-56 to LO-AF-68 and LO-AF-70: All these delition are based on the assumption that we can not use Thrid Ages information. As I think we should skip that assumption, we should keep the text of the original intact.

The speech of Dunland (paragraphs including LO-AF-59 to LO-AF-61): I remember that we have the info that Dunlandish was the speech of the Haladin of the First Age. Since that was alien to the speeches of the Houses of Beor and Hador, which were akin and did grow together into Andunaic, the Númenoreans missed to recognise the Dunlendings as akin. Maybe we should add that info here, but I have to search for the source.

LO-AF-61: Even so we keep the text we have to change the reference:

LO-AF-61b Of their language nothing appears in {this book}[the books], save the name ...

LO-AF-62: Here a big chunk of text was not used. I think we should mark that in our editing marker. Or should we include the remarks about the hobbits here?

LO-AF-63.5: At the start of the paragraph about Orcs, ‘Orcs and the Black Speech’ was deleted. I think we should document that.

LO-AF-66 & LO-AF-68: Even so we keep the text, the references to pages of LotR must be deleted.

Behind LO-AF-69: ‘trolls’ must be capitalised.

LO-AF-69.5: I would us at the end of the paragraph about the ‘normal’ Trolls the info about the Sindarin name:

... and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech. LO-AF-69.5<editorial addition Their name in Sindarin was Torog.>

LO-55: If we skip these as we probably should, we have to replace all later usages of these abbreviations by their here given meaning.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

LH-01.5: Agreed.

DP-10b/10.5/11.5: Agreed, but I would change "after Pengolodh left" to "After Pengolodh departed Middle-earth" to be clearer and keep to Tolkien's style more.

LO-03b: Agreed.

LO-03.5: Agreed, but it should be 'were' not 'where.'

LO-06: Yes, that is a simple slip-up on my posting in the private forum.

LO-10: Very well, we can leave it as it is in the original.

LO-11: I am unsure why you mention Eol here, since this marker refers to the statement that Quenya became more like Sindarin in Middle-earth.

LO-17: Good catch.

LO-22.5: Very nice catch Fin! Agreed.

LO-24b: We may use speeches. I would rather not remove it if we do not need to. It is a minor thing, and as far as I know is not incorrect, it simply sounds unusual to me.

LO-25: Agreed. It is nice not to have to remove so much information.

LO-29: I agree in principle, but I would also remove the 'with' and change your 'Sindar' to 'among the Sindar.'

LO-32: This seems like a riskier change but I am not entirely opposed. But I wonder if it is necessary? Why not leave it as 'ruin of their realm' and leave it to the reader to interpret the meaning?

LO-37: Agreed.

LO-40: Why is Children bad?

LO-41: I am glad I seem to have stumbled my way to an acceptable edit here! I was not confident about the timeline at all.

LO-42.5: Splendid!

LO-44.5: Because of the additions from the Appendix F below, I saw this which I think can be included here:

.... seldom learned by those of other race.
LO-44.5 <Appendix F In {this history}the histories it appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions; and in the battle-cry which he uttered in the siege of the Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young. Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu! 'Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!'
Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin. Their own secret and 'inner' names, their true names, the Dwarves have never revealed to any one of alien race. Not even on their tombs do they inscribe them.>
The Dwarves were not, .....

LO-46: Because of the edits about the timing we should indeed keep it.

LO-54: We can remove 'the.' As for {Uldor}[Ulfang] is that not a later change of Tolkien's? I may have been mistaken.

LO-55: Yes we must be vigilant about that going forward.

LO-AF-56-68/70: Agreed, we can keep the text.

LO-AF-59-61: Did we not use this material elsewhere?

LO-AF-61b: Agreed.

LO-AF-62: We mus include the Hobbit information if we are giving the third age info, and it is in this section that the greatest amount of expansion will be found in the texts of HoME 12. I would, however, leave out the title.

LO-AF-63.5: Agreed.

LO-AF-66/68: Agreed.

LO-AF-69/69.5: Agreed.

[gandalf85]

I'm glad we are including the Third Age material. To those comments I don't respond to, I agree:

DP-10b/10.5/11.5: I agree with ArcusCalion's "After Pengolodh departed Middle-earth".

LO-29: I agree to "among the Sindar".

LO-32: I agree with Arcus that this seems like too much of a change. I would leave it a "ruin of their realm" which is open to interpretation.

LO-40: I was actually thinking something like "House" might be more appropriate. When Tolkien says "Finrodians" we are not sure if he is referring to the family/children of Finarfin or the followers of Finarfin (or both). I think House of vague enough to retain the ambiguity of the original "Finrodians".

LO-42.5: This is a good idea, as "Excursus on the Languages of Beleriand" was becoming increasingly inaccurate as a sub-title.

LO-44.5: Agreed to including this.

LO-54: I just assumed this change was right. Looking at the HoME Index I don't think it is.

LO-AF-62 I agree with using the Hobbit material but not having a separate sub-title.

One small fix: in the Word document I have between LO-07 and LO-08 there is an Avari with a symbol above the second a: Avări. It should be removed.