Lambion Ontalë

[ArcusCalion]

I see the issue with this being 'the Lammas.' This is something we must discuss as a group. Personally, I am open to the idea of being more vague in the language, since we know we do not have the full Lammas, since Q&E is said to be Aelfwine's summary of a part of the Lammas, and the Osanwe-Kenta is said to be his summary of a part of it as well where Pengolodh talks about osanwe. However, even if this was a summary of the Lammas and not the true thing, it would still not include Third Age stuff. Buuuut we have put information out of time in other areas so I am torn. I would like Fin's opinion on this.

As to the addition, it looks good at the moment. We may need to look into HoME 12 to see if there are any expansions that can be made, since there is much that relates to the formation of Appendix F there.

[gandalf85]

I'm not saying ours would be a summary of an in-universe Lammas, but that it would be based on the in-universe text. In which case additional material about the Third Age has been added to it. Maybe by Bilbo himself later in the Third Age. It feels incomplete as a document discussing the history and evolution of the languages without giving the full picture, i.e. Third Age stuff. I will see if there's anything from HoME 12 we could include.

[Findegil]

At long last I found some time to review this chapter. Solid work, ArcusCalion! To everythings I do not comment I agree.
About our text and it’s in Univers history: We have long since left behind the idea that what we creat could claim any kind of existence in Arda of the earlier Ages (let’s say anthing before the change from the Sixth to the Seventh Age of the Sun). Therefore I would add more freely information that could not be known by Pengolodh.
But that means of course that we must change some things from the beginning of the Lammas. I will address all these change while going throught the text:

LO-01.5: At the start we have to tell what we consider our text to be:

This is LO-01.5<editorial addition mainly drawn from> the 'Account of Tongues' which {Pengolod}[Pengolodh] of Gondolin wrote in later days in LH-02{Tol-eressea}[Eriador], using the work of Rúmil the sage of {Tun}[Tirion]. LH-03{This account Ælfwine saw when he came into the West.}

DP-10b: I think we overlooked this:

... And so still it goes in Middle-earth. DP-10b{
Yet long since, Ælfwine, the fashion of the World was changed; and we that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of our being: so that now we preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless here at last in Eressëa our tongues are steadfast; and here over a wide sea of years we speak now still little otherwise than we did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.}

Sin Quentë Quengoldo
(Thus spoke {Pengoloð}[Pengolodh])
DP-10.5<moved from above
Yet {long since, Ælfwine,}[after Pengolodh left] the fashion of the World was changed; and DP-11{we}[those] that dwell now in the Ancient West are removed from the circles of the World, and in memory is the greater part of {our}[their] being: so that now {we}[they] preserve rather than make anew. Wherefore, though even in Aman - beyond the circles of Arda, yet still within Eä - change goes ever on, until the End, be it slow beyond perceiving save in ages of time, nonetheless DP-11.5{here at last }in Eressëa {our}[their] tongues are steadfast; and {here}[there] over a wide sea of years {we}[they] speak now still little otherwise than {we}[they] did - and those also that perished - in the wars of Beleriand, when the Sun was young.

LO-03b: I think under what is said above the remark about the ‘excerpt from another work’ must go.

… whence so ever derived, was their own and Elvish.[Footnote to the text: Quoth Rúmil. LO-03b{So Ælfwine notes. This passage seems an excerpt from another work.}]

LO-03.5b: In the view of what was said we should remove the ‘we’:

... together with such records of the Avari as LO-03.5b{we here}[where set down] in {Eressëa have set down}[Eriador] in {these }later days. ...

LO-06: Was not Danian here italic?

LO-10: Equally where Pengolodh is, he may know that Sindarin the daily speech on Tol Eressëa. Therefore I think the change is unnecessary from the start and with the changes we did to get free from Pengolodh’s view point it does not makes sence at all.

LO-11: I agree to this change. Tolkien thought of Eöl as an Avari, so it is not really believable that Pengolodh could not learn any thing about theire speech before he returned to Eressëa.

Before LO-17: ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language.’ This is ...’ must be ‘...also called Parmaquesta, or ‘book-language’. This is ...’.

LO-22.5: I think we should just for the reason of safety remove the great changes in Etya-noldorin:

... On the other hand Túnanoldorin or Túnarin[Footnote to the text: For after a while the Vanyar forsook Túna, and there only the Noldor dwelt.] is contemporary with Parmaquesta, and shows from the first LO-22[ not] much divergence from Quenya (and Telerin),[ but nonetheless] becoming already before the Exile a{ wholly} distinct {speech}[dialect], in which many of the LO-22.5{great }changes that took place during the Exile are foreshadowed.

LO-24b: I am okay with the change to plural, and I don’t know if ‘speeches’ is useable. If you, as a native speak, find that usage strange we probably should remove it.

LO-25: With the changes discussed above, this half-sentence should be kept.

LO-29: I would edit this a bit differently. The main cauldron for such mixing as is described here would be the Havens of Sirion, I guess. Therefore this would be my way to edit:

... For many of the {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] joined the hosts of the Noldo-chieftains; and in the days of defeat many of the Noldor took refuge LO-29b[ together ]with {Thingol in Doriath}[Sindar]. There were {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] of Doriath in the remnant that gathered under Eärendil at the Mouths of Sirion; and Eärendil drew his blood not only from Men, but also from both Noldor and {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar].

LO-32: I think this speaks about the death of Denethor in the first Battle of Beleriand. And I would keep it at that by this edit:

They were called the ‘Green-elves’ (Laiquendi in Quenya) by the other folk of Beleriand. After the LO-32b{ruin of their realm}[death of their leader] many took refuge with Thingol in Doriath, and thus record was there preserved of their ancient tongue, and is kept still, though incomplete, in Eressëa.

LO-37: I think we must remove the ‘well-nigh 3500 years of the Sun’:

It was indeed at the landing of Fëanor LO-37b{three hundred and sixty-five long years}[more than three long Ages] of the Valar since the Noldor had passed over the Sea and left the Sindar behind.{ Now that time was in length well-nigh as three thousand and five hundred years of the Sun. }In such {an age}[a time] the tongues of Men ...

LO-40: I think ‘House of Finrafin’ worls very well here.

LO-41: This is proberlbly over done. The Wars of Beleriand started before the rising of the Sun, so even if the the First Age of the Sun ended in the year 590 F.A. the period of mingling could be morer then 10 years longer. But we would thus specifiy that the Valian Year was more then 10 times longer then a Sun year. And since we should avoid that, I am okay with ArcusCalions edit to the old statement.

LO-42.5: What about a sub-heading before LO-43? I would say ‘Of other Races’ from LotR, Appendix F would fit here very well.

LO-46: I think we should keep the usage of the Runes into the Third Age.

Behind LO-54:
- Why did you add ‘the’ before Ered-Lindon? For me it reads strange.
- Why did you change Uldor to Ulfang?

Addition from Appendix F: Oops! These editing markers by gandalf85 deteriorate the numbering by ArcusCalion! Many of them are thus doubled! To avoid this we should name all the markers for this addition LO-AF-zz, but keep the once established number (thus staring with LO-AF-55 and ending with LO-AF-70, so fare).

In these additions there is a lot of Italic to be added.

LO-AF-56 to LO-AF-68 and LO-AF-70: All these delition are based on the assumption that we can not use Thrid Ages information. As I think we should skip that assumption, we should keep the text of the original intact.

The speech of Dunland (paragraphs including LO-AF-59 to LO-AF-61): I remember that we have the info that Dunlandish was the speech of the Haladin of the First Age. Since that was alien to the speeches of the Houses of Beor and Hador, which were akin and did grow together into Andunaic, the Númenoreans missed to recognise the Dunlendings as akin. Maybe we should add that info here, but I have to search for the source.

LO-AF-61: Even so we keep the text we have to change the reference:

LO-AF-61b Of their language nothing appears in {this book}[the books], save the name ...

LO-AF-62: Here a big chunk of text was not used. I think we should mark that in our editing marker. Or should we include the remarks about the hobbits here?

LO-AF-63.5: At the start of the paragraph about Orcs, ‘Orcs and the Black Speech’ was deleted. I think we should document that.

LO-AF-66 & LO-AF-68: Even so we keep the text, the references to pages of LotR must be deleted.

Behind LO-AF-69: ‘trolls’ must be capitalised.

LO-AF-69.5: I would us at the end of the paragraph about the ‘normal’ Trolls the info about the Sindarin name:

... and in the Westlands the Stone-trolls spoke a debased form of the Common Speech. LO-AF-69.5<editorial addition Their name in Sindarin was Torog.>

LO-55: If we skip these as we probably should, we have to replace all later usages of these abbreviations by their here given meaning.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

LH-01.5: Agreed.

DP-10b/10.5/11.5: Agreed, but I would change "after Pengolodh left" to "After Pengolodh departed Middle-earth" to be clearer and keep to Tolkien's style more.

LO-03b: Agreed.

LO-03.5: Agreed, but it should be 'were' not 'where.'

LO-06: Yes, that is a simple slip-up on my posting in the private forum.

LO-10: Very well, we can leave it as it is in the original.

LO-11: I am unsure why you mention Eol here, since this marker refers to the statement that Quenya became more like Sindarin in Middle-earth.

LO-17: Good catch.

LO-22.5: Very nice catch Fin! Agreed.

LO-24b: We may use speeches. I would rather not remove it if we do not need to. It is a minor thing, and as far as I know is not incorrect, it simply sounds unusual to me.

LO-25: Agreed. It is nice not to have to remove so much information.

LO-29: I agree in principle, but I would also remove the 'with' and change your 'Sindar' to 'among the Sindar.'

LO-32: This seems like a riskier change but I am not entirely opposed. But I wonder if it is necessary? Why not leave it as 'ruin of their realm' and leave it to the reader to interpret the meaning?

LO-37: Agreed.

LO-40: Why is Children bad?

LO-41: I am glad I seem to have stumbled my way to an acceptable edit here! I was not confident about the timeline at all.

LO-42.5: Splendid!

LO-44.5: Because of the additions from the Appendix F below, I saw this which I think can be included here:

.... seldom learned by those of other race.
LO-44.5 <Appendix F In {this history}the histories it appears only in such place-names as Gimli revealed to his companions; and in the battle-cry which he uttered in the siege of the Hornburg. That at least was not secret, and had been heard on many a field since the world was young. Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu! 'Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!'
Gimli's own name, however, and the names of all his kin, are of Northern (Mannish) origin. Their own secret and 'inner' names, their true names, the Dwarves have never revealed to any one of alien race. Not even on their tombs do they inscribe them.>
The Dwarves were not, .....

LO-46: Because of the edits about the timing we should indeed keep it.

LO-54: We can remove 'the.' As for {Uldor}[Ulfang] is that not a later change of Tolkien's? I may have been mistaken.

LO-55: Yes we must be vigilant about that going forward.

LO-AF-56-68/70: Agreed, we can keep the text.

LO-AF-59-61: Did we not use this material elsewhere?

LO-AF-61b: Agreed.

LO-AF-62: We mus include the Hobbit information if we are giving the third age info, and it is in this section that the greatest amount of expansion will be found in the texts of HoME 12. I would, however, leave out the title.

LO-AF-63.5: Agreed.

LO-AF-66/68: Agreed.

LO-AF-69/69.5: Agreed.

[gandalf85]

I'm glad we are including the Third Age material. To those comments I don't respond to, I agree:

DP-10b/10.5/11.5: I agree with ArcusCalion's "After Pengolodh departed Middle-earth".

LO-29: I agree to "among the Sindar".

LO-32: I agree with Arcus that this seems like too much of a change. I would leave it a "ruin of their realm" which is open to interpretation.

LO-40: I was actually thinking something like "House" might be more appropriate. When Tolkien says "Finrodians" we are not sure if he is referring to the family/children of Finarfin or the followers of Finarfin (or both). I think House of vague enough to retain the ambiguity of the original "Finrodians".

LO-42.5: This is a good idea, as "Excursus on the Languages of Beleriand" was becoming increasingly inaccurate as a sub-title.

LO-44.5: Agreed to including this.

LO-54: I just assumed this change was right. Looking at the HoME Index I don't think it is.

LO-AF-62 I agree with using the Hobbit material but not having a separate sub-title.

One small fix: in the Word document I have between LO-07 and LO-08 there is an Avari with a symbol above the second a: Avări. It should be removed.

[Findegil]

DP-10.5: Okay we will take ‘after Pengolodh departed Middle-earth’.

LO-03.5: Thanks for catching that typo.

LO-11: Oops! Bad mistake of mine. The comment was meant for LO-12, where you changed the statement about the lake of knowledge about Avarin from ‘before the Thrid Age’ to ‘belore later Ages’.

LO-29: There is big difference in meaning between ‘together with Sindar’ and ‘among Sindar’. The only example I can think of for ‘among Sindar’ are the Isle of Balar, where some Nodlor dwelt among the people of Círdan. But ‘together with Sindar’ could be said about all later refuges: Isle of Balar (see above) and Havens of Sirion as well as Amon Ereb where mixed people lived under moer or less Noldorin rulers.

LO-32: Okay, I agree to let the text stand as it is. Since no new ruler was declared the death of Denethor in a way destroyed the realm.

LO-40: We speak about languages. It is impossible to change a language by some Lords of the Eldar talking to some Lords of the Edain. Therefore we are her talking about the people ruled by the House of Beor living in close contact to the people ruled by the House of Finrafin. That is why I would not use ‘Children of Finrafin’.

LO-44.5: Very nice addition! Agreed.

LO-54: ‘Ulfang the Black’ was the father and the leader of the folk, while ‘Uldor the Accursed’ was the son and leader in the treason and with that the more prominent figure. Both are included in our text. I would let ‘Uldor the Accursed’ stand. If we change, we should change to ‘Ulfang the Black’.

LO-AF-58.5, LO-AF-60.5 and LO-AF-60.6: Yes the material was used at the end of Tal-Elmar where we describe the classification of men by the Númenoreans. Nonetheless I think we should use the information here again:

Wholly alien was the speech of the Wild Men of Drúadan Forest. Alien, too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of LO-AF-58.5<Of Dwarves and Man {Thus many of} the forest-dwellers of the shorelands south of the Ered Luin, especially in Minhiriath>. These{the} peoples{ that} had dwelt also in the vales of the White Mountains in ages past. LO-AF-59b The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had become subjects of the North Kingdom of Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue. Only in Dunland did Men of this race hold to their old speech and manners: a secret folk, unfriendly to the Dúnedain LO-AF-60b , hating the Rohirrim. LO-AF-60.5<Of Dwarves and Man {were as}As later historians recognized they were the kin of the Folk of Haleth.> LO-AF-60.6<Of Dwarves and Man [Footnote to the text: {This may have been one of the reasons why the Numenoreans failed to recognize the Forest-folk of Minhiriath as 'kinsmen', and confused them with Men of the Shadow; for as}As has been noted the native language of the Folk of Haleth was not related to the language of the Folks of Hador and Bëor.]>
LO-AF-61b Of their language nothing appears in {this book}[the books], ...

LO-AF-62C: Okay that would mean like this:

... there is thus no connexion between the word dunn in these names and the Grey-elven word Dûn ‘west’.
LO-AF-61.1{OF HOBBITS
}The Hobbits of the Shire and of Bree had at LO-AF-61.2{this time}the ende of the Thrid Age, for probably a thousand years, adopted the Common Speech. They used it in their own manner freely and carelessly; though the more learned among them had still at their command a more formal language when occasion required.
There is no record of any language peculiar to Hobbits. In ancient days they seem always to have used the languages of Men near whom, or among whom, they lived. Thus they quickly adopted the Common Speech after they entered Eriador, and by the time of their settlement at Bree they had already begun to forget their former tongue. This was evidently a Mannish language of the upper Anduin, akin to that of the Rohirrim; though the southern Stoors appear to have adopted a language related to Dunlendish before they came north to the Shire.[Footnote to the text: The Stoors of the Angle, who returned to Wilderland, had already adopted the Common Speech; but Déagol and Sméagol are names in the Mannish language of the region near the Gladden.]
Of these things in the time of Frodo there were still some traces left in local words and names, many of which closely resembled those found in Dale or in Rohan. Most notable were the names of days, months, and seasons; several other words of the same sort (such as mathom and smial) were also still in common use, while more were preserved in the place-names of Bree and the Shire. The personal names of the Hobbits were also peculiar and many had come down from ancient days.
Hobbit was the name usually applied by the Shire-folk to all their kind. Men called them Halflings and the Elves Periannath. The origin of the word hobbit was by most forgotten. It seems, however, to have been at first a name given to the Harfoots by the Fallohides and Stoors, and to be a worn-down form of a word preserved more fully in Rohan: holbytla 'hole-builder'.
LO-AF-62c{OF OTHER RACES}
{Ents. }The most ancient people surviving in the Third Age …

Avari between LO-07 and LO-08: I think this diacritical sign is in the original text, and if so it shlould be kept.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

LO-29: I see your point, so I will take 'together with'.

LO-40: Very well, 'House' works better, we can use it.

LO-54: Apologies, I misread the intentions. We can leave it as Uldor.

LO-AF-58.5/60.5/60.6: Agreed, this helps here greatly. Some minor repetition like this is always allowed, I think.

LO-AF-62c: Yes indeed, thank you for posting the relevant edits and markers.

Avari: It is indeed in the original text which is why I included it. It should be kept.