LotR -- Book 5 - Chapter 08 - The Houses of Healing

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

It occurs to me to wonder if Imrahil knew Thorongil during his time in Gondor. I *think* (I'm dangerously not looking up Imrahil's age) that Imrahil was old enough to have encountered him, even if he might not have been truly adult. As Finduilas's brother, he's a junior contemporary of Denethor, who certainly did know Thorongil, though we're not definitively told that Denethor ever positively IDed Gandalf's Ranger of the North as the same man. *IF* Imrahil recognised him, years later, it's clear that Imrahil has no doubts about Aragorn's claim, but perhaps this influences his agreement that Aragorn be circumspect in his approach to Denethor.

Imrahil was born in 2955, so he was 2 when Thorongil first came on the scene, but 25 when he left. Denethor married Finduilas in 2976, for what it's worth. It seems like there would have been a good chance that as a young man Imrahil met Thorongil – not that I'm saying he would have recognised him later.

[Galadriel55]

I just noticed something interesting that I don't believe was discussed previously on this thread, and I want to open it up for speculation.

For though all lore was in these latter days fallen from its fullness of old, the leechcraft of Gondor was still wise, and skilled in the healing of wound and hurt, and all such sickness as east of the Sea mortal men were subject to. Save old age only. For that they had found no cure; and indeed the span of their lives had now waned to little more than that of other men, and those among them who passed the tale of five score years with vigour were grown few, save in some houses of purer blood.

"All sickness.. save old age only". Does it not seem like old age is being grouped in as an imperfection of the human kind that ought to be fixed or avoided? Could this be an echo of the Numenorian obsession with death - though Gondor strives against it with its healing rather than its temples, but in a world where healing is as much magic as science the line may be blurred. At the very least it is not an obsession, like it was in the corrupted Numenor, but could it be some remnant of the same ideas unconsciously persisting in those who escaped the Fall? I used to read this as to mean that they had a cure for everything except for the inevitable old age, which is a compliment to their skill, but it also sounds a little like they attempt[ed] to cure age implying that they think it could and should be "cured".

I also don't like the word "leechcraft". For me it carries too much of an overtone of uselessness and guesswork, and an idea of a universal cure. The healers of Gondor were so much more than just leechers, and it hurts a little to hear their work called leechcraft. I didn't even notice until now, cause I usually read my translation in favour of the original for sentimental reasons, and they use other words to denote healing without the connection to leeching. This word sounds very jarring and unmerited to my unaccustomed ears, because the Healers can do a lot more and do it a lot better than this profession description conveys. Maybe I'm being too picky, and that the word is broad enough to cover all forms of healing and not just leeching, but it seemed jarring given the respect the Healers otherwise command on a professional level.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I also don't like the word "leechcraft". For me it carries too much of an overtone of uselessness and guesswork, and an idea of a universal cure.

Well, two chapters prior in The Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Imrahil says:

'Men of Rohan! Are there no leeches among you? [Eowyn] is hurt, to the death maybe, but I deem that she yet lives.'

To the Gondorian mind, at least, it seems that the term 'leech' carried no negative connotation.

[Formendacil]

I think the use of the terms "leech" and "leechcraft" have more to do with Tolkien evoking the ancientry of Gondor than using bloodsucking worms medicinally.

And! A little bit of quick googling "etymology of leech" leads me to believe we have a classic case of Tolkien attempting to reintroduce aan old meaning to a modern form: "leech" with the archaic meaning of "doctor" apparently has quite a few cognates in Germanic tongues.

That said, the descent of elven derived healing into bloodsucking worms does sound like a bit of a metaphor for the fall of Numenor.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I think the use of the terms "leech" and "leechcraft" have more to do with Tolkien evoking the ancientry of Gondor than using bloodsucking worms medicinally.

It seems you're correct.
As Théoden angrily remarked to Wormtongue in The King of the Golden Hall:

'Your leechcraft ere long would have had me walking on all fours like a beast.'

Théoden, being of part Gondorian descent, could be expected to use some of their expressions.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Etymology:

leech (n.2)

"physician" (obsolete, poetical, or archaic), from Old English læce "leech," probably from Old Danish læke, from Proto-Germanic *lekjaz "enchanter, one who speaks magic words; healer, physician" (source also of Old Frisian letza, Old Saxon laki, Old Norse læknir, Old High German lahhi, Gothic lekeis "physician"), literally "one who counsels," perhaps connected with a root found in Celtic (compare Irish liaig "charmer, exorcist, physician") and Slavic (compare Serbo-Croatian lijekar, Polish lekarz), from PIE *lep-agi "conjurer," from root *leg- (1) "to collect, gather," with derivatives meaning "to speak (to 'pick out words')."

For sense development, compare Old Church Slavonic baliji "doctor," originally "conjurer," related to Serbo-Croatian bajati "enchant, conjure;" Old Church Slavonic vrači, Russian vrač "doctor," related to Serbo-Croatian vrač "sorcerer, fortune-teller." The form merged with leech (n.1) in Middle English, apparently by folk etymology. In early Middle English also of God and Christ; by 17c. the sense had so deteriorated leech typically was applied only to veterinary practitioners, and soon it was entirely archaic.

The fourth finger of the hand, in Old English, was læcfinger, translating Latin digitus medicus, Greek daktylus iatrikos, supposedly because a vein from that finger stretches straight to the heart.

leech (v.)

"to cure, heal," c. 1200, from Old English also had a verb læcnian, from the source of leech (n.2). Meaning "to apply leeches medicinally" is from 1802 (implied in leeching), from leech (n.1). Related: Leeched.

[Galadriel55]

Well, I just discovered something. I have been assuming that leech=doctor etymologically derived from their use of leeches=bloodsuckers. But having read your comments and done a little search I realized it might well be the other way around, in which case I retract my case. It still sounds jarring with the modern association but it makes perfect sense etymologically.