Riddles in the Downs

[Urwen]

Yeah. It's Pervinca's turn, I believe.

[Pervinca Took]

It was a lovely poem, Urwen. And that YouTube cartoon you linked to looks beautiful. I will watch it when I have a little more time.

I've never written a riddle before, unless you count my 'pubs and inns' password. If I can't think of one quickly enough, I'd be happy for Huinesoron to have the next go. But I will try.

[Urwen]

How long until you will give the turn to him?

[Pervinca Took]

Well, I have something I originally wrote as a filk. I could try it as a riddle.

[Pervinca Took]

OK - just don't hit me if you don't like filks, OK? This is not me trying to pass off Pink Floyd's work as my own - just a humble tribute to two masterpieces instead of one:

SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMOND

Remember when you were young,
You shone like the sun:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Then came that look in your eyes
Weary, hunted and wise:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
You were speared on a hilltop
In terror and combat,
Rode on a sea of pain.
Come on, you target for conspirers’ laughter!
Come on, you legend, you hero, you martyr, and shine!

You took up the gauntlet:
Fared forth in the dark
Shine on you crazy diamond!
Threatened by shadows at night
And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Well you wore out your heart’s strength
With deadly precision,
And broke on a mountain’s peak;
Come on, you quester, you seer of visions,
Come on, you vessel of light never darkling
And shine!

Where are you roaming tonight?
How near or how far?
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Pile on many more years
And I’ll be joining you there:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
And we’ll bask in the glory of yesterday’s triumph
And weep on Cormallen’s field!
Come on, you dreamer
You winner and loser!
Come on you deep one, you thinker, you muser
And shine!


SO -

Who might sing this?
To whom?
And what would the verses/lines refer to?

[Huinesoron]

Well... Cormallen points me at the War of the Ring, and the only person I know of who was 'speared' is Frodo Baggins.

Which works pretty well with the rest of the poem:

Remember when you were young,
You shone like the sun:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Then came that look in your eyes
Weary, hunted and wise:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

A general summary of Frodo's path. The repeated 'diamond' refrain can refer to the white gem he received from ?Arwen right at the end of the story.

You were speared on a hilltop
In terror and combat,
Rode on a sea of pain.

A combination of two references: Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop (and rode - by himself - over Bruinen despite his pain), but was later speared in Moria.

Come on, you target for conspirers’ laughter!

The Conspiracy Unmasked, of course.

Come on, you legend, you hero, you martyr, and shine!

This is more accurate outside the Shire than within; in that country, Bilbo was more of a legend than his nephew. But in Gondor, yes.

You took up the gauntlet:
Fared forth in the dark
Shine on you crazy diamond!

Frodo swore to bear the Ring, and I believe left Rivendell at sunset.

Threatened by shadows at night

The Nazgul.

And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

'There is nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire', as he said.

Well you wore out your heart’s strength
With deadly precision,
And broke on a mountain’s peak;

Welcome to Mordor. 'Deadly precision' really does sum up Frodo's grinding-down during the final stages of the journey, and in the end he did break.

Come on, you quester, you seer of visions,
Come on, you vessel of light never darkling
And shine!

Frodo has multiple visionary moments - in Bombadil's house, at Bruinen, in Lorien, on Amon Hen, and in Mordor (possibly others too). The 'vessel of light' refers both to him, and to the Phial of Galadriel.

Where are you roaming tonight?
How near or how far?
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
Pile on many more years
And I’ll be joining you there:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!
And we’ll bask in the glory of yesterday’s triumph
And weep on Cormallen’s field!
Come on, you dreamer
You winner and loser!
Come on you deep one, you thinker, you muser
And shine!

This verse answers the third question: who is the Singer? Well, Frodo is walking the roads of the Lonely Isle tonight, and after many years and the death of his beloved Mistress Rose, it is Samwise Gamgee who will join him there.

'You winner and loser' is a perfect summary of Frodo's journey, while 'dreamer, deep one, thinker, muser' is equally perfect as a description of his character.

How'd I do?

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Fantastically! There are some ideas and insights there that I hadn't thought of, a few missed and a few answered differently but well.

I will give itemised feedback when I have a little more time .. could you just hold on to your next riddle until then? I'll try to do it today.

Just for now, though, Finduilas was speared too. And Celebrimbor (after death, at least).

[Pervinca Took]

H

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Well... Cormallen points me at the War of the Ring, and the only person I know of who was 'speared' is Frodo Baggins.

Which works pretty well with the rest of the poem:

A general summary of Frodo's path. The repeated 'diamond' refrain can refer to the white gem he received from ?Arwen right at the end of the story.

I don't think I thought of Arwen's gem at all, actually. The constant repetition of 'Shine on' in the original song automatically made me think of Frodo, because of the light that is said to shine within him, and which is noticed and commented on by Gandalf and Sam. I kept 'crazy diamond' because it's in the original song (which I find incredibly moving, both in reference to the late Syd Barrett *and* in the way I find it applicable to Frodo). Plus the 'crazy' bit feels like an affectionate way of Sam acknowledging that 'It's beyond any Gamgee to know what he'll do next.' As Tolkien said, there was an aspect of Sam that 'prevented him from fully understanding the master that he loved.'

A combination of two references: Frodo was stabbed at Weathertop (and rode - by himself - over Bruinen despite his pain), but was later speared in Moria.

Ah yes - he did indeed ride alone over Bruinen!

I was using the phrase 'sea of pain' metaphorically, though, for the 17 days he bore the splinter (although I don't think he would have felt it for the last 2 or 3, when he was unconscious). I wanted him to 'ride' on something (metaphorically) because the original lyrics go 'Rode on a steel breeze,' (a reference to a steel guitar/steel strings, I think).

Although - silly me - he was riding on something anyway! First Bill, and then Asfaloth.

I also used 'spear' metaphorically, just to mean impaled/pierced/stabbed with something, which is what a spear does. Mainly for euphony - it sounds nicer than 'stabbed.' So 'speared on a hilltop' refers exclusively to the wounding at Weathertop.

[quote]The Conspiracy Unmasked, of course.[/I]

Correct interpretation of 'victim of conspirers' laughter' - again, it's a tweaking of the original lyrics, which I think referred to Syd's vulnerability to laughter from the audience - I'm sure I once read something to that effect.

This is more accurate outside the Shire than within; in that country, Bilbo was more of a legend than his nephew. But in Gondor, yes.

Just the fact that he IS a legend - and Sam at least (and Gondor) knew it.

'Martyr' is in the original lyrics too - but reflects the fact that his heroism was of a sacrificial nature. I kind of imagine Sam using the term with a slightly wry affection.

Frodo swore to bear the Ring, and I believe left Rivendell at sunset.

Correct for the 'gauntlet' bit - 'fared forth in the dark' was I think I general comment on the darkness of his road, ('the darkest road' - Aragorn at Cormallen) and how little known the way ahead or how on earth the quest would be achieved was. I might have been thinking about them leaving at sunset too - can't remember.

Threatened by shadows at night

The Nazgul.

Quote:
And tormented by light:
Shine on, you crazy diamond!

'There is nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire', as he said.

Maybe … I think it was a reference to the terrible last days of Ringbearing, when even 'sleep [was] uneasy, full of dreams of fire, and waking brought him no comfort' either.

Welcome to Mordor. 'Deadly precision' really does sum up Frodo's grinding-down during the final stages of the journey, and in the end he did break.

Yes, and the fact that, as Tolkien said, every drop of his power of mind and body was 'just enough to take him to [Mount Doom] and no further.'

That's the deadly precision: it was exactly enough for the quest to succeed, but not enough for him to be able to succeed by an act of will, recover and live in peace in his own country again.

Frodo has multiple visionary moments - in Bombadil's house, at Bruinen, in Lorien, on Amon Hen, and in Mordor (possibly others too). The 'vessel of light' refers both to him, and to the Phial of Galadriel.

All accurate. Again, Frodo becoming 'like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.' I was most likely thinking of the Phial he bore as well, as you say.

And as Paul Kocher pointed out, no-one dreams as much (or as prophetically?) as he does.

… who is the Singer? Well, Frodo is walking the roads of the Lonely Isle tonight, and after many years and the death of his beloved Mistress Rose, it is Samwise Gamgee who will join him there.

Quite.

'You winner and loser' is a perfect summary of Frodo's journey, while 'dreamer, deep one, thinker, muser' is equally perfect as a description of his character.

Yes - he lost everything, in a sense: health, home, peace of mind, friends (because he had to leave them) … I know he gained (won) other things afterwards, but it doesn't alter the fact that he sacrificed the future he most wanted. And he won/helped save things for others to enjoy.

Yes, he 'technically' or in one sense lost the battle against the Ring, because it was not possible for one not divine to win it. But he won the quest through his endurance, pity and humility - and with help from Sam and Gollum (and distraction from Aragorn and Co).

I really love this song.

Not as much as I love Frodo. But I love it.

Over to you, Huinesoron!