4 Of the coming of the Elves

[gandalf85]

CE-01: If both of Aiwendil's suggestions are valid, I suppose we must choose for stylistic reasons. I prefer the first suggestion, starting with AAm.

CE-SL-01: I agree to Fin's latest change, and changing "multiplied" to "gathered".

CE-EX-04: I agree to Aiwendil's placement of the Cuivienyarna. I think including the information that this is a child's tale is a great idea, including it in the sub-heading works well.

CE-SL-06, 07: I agree with Fin's changes. I say we keep the sun of summer; the Elves are very much a mix of joy and sorrow, so the idea that they delight in the sun while simultaneously recognizing that it signals their downfall works very well.

CE-EX-06 - -23: Definitely agree with moving this to Volume III.

I have a few other recommendations/changes:

1. There are a few "k->c" changes which need to be made in this chapter, including "Valakirka->Valacirca", "Kuivienen->Cuivienen", "Helkar->Helcar", "Kalaquendi->Calaquendi" and "Orokarni->Orocarni". Also, the change "Ork->Orc" should be made throughout the whole document.

2.In §41:

And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)

Is this conversion right? What are we using as the length of a Valian year?

3. A few typos:

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him

"greatpower" should be two words and "entxeat" should be "entreat"

them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkors sphere of influence

"Melkors" should be "Melkor's"

and on a powerlevel with the Valar

"powerlevel" should be two words.

4.

Then arose a clamour among the {Gods}[Valar] and the most spake for {Palúrien}[Kementári] and Vána, whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar{ – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and}. Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else...

This is not in keeping with the later conception of Nienna, a goddess of compassion and empathy. I say we change it to: "Mandos {and Fui were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else..."

5.

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>

The idea of the Valar using "guile" doesn't feel in keeping with their later conception, I would simply change it to "overcome him by force {or guile}".

6. I would move the entire "The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar" section to Volume 3, to a chapter with other linguistic material.

[Findegil]

CE-01: I agree with gandalf85 to take Aiwendil’s first proposle. But more important we agree to include CE-EX-03 as well, or not?

CE-SL-06: I am okay with ‘sun of summer’ with the addition of ‘later’ especially since the heraldic signs of Fingoflin and his son was a winged sun. I assume that they toke them after they entered Middle-earth at the first rising of the sun and in a backward application based on Fingoflin’s claim as High King of the Noldor applied the similar heraldic signs to his father Finwë and grand-(who know how often)-sire Tata. We placed that heraldic sign of the House of Tata (NN ‘Patterns’ (the winged sun in the upper right corner, sign of the second House; Artist; no. 183; p. 186) into this chapter.

CE-EX-06: So this means we would let the text stand as following:

<AAm …
{§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, ... he heard afar off many voices singing. CE-EX-05.5{
§42 }Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited.{ And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them Eldar, the people of the stars.}
{§43 }Yet many of the Quendi were adread at his coming. ... if ever haply they met.
{§44 }Thus it was that when Nahar neighed ... and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it.> CE-EX-05.2 <Q&E {when}When Oromë appeared among them, and at length some dared to approach him, they asked him his name, and he answered: Oromë. Then they asked him what that signified, and again he answered: Oromë. To me only is it given; for I am Oromë. Yet the titles that he bore were many and glorious; but he withheld them at that time, that the Quendi should not be afraid.
{Nahar, the name of Oromë’s horse. ‘}Otherwise it was{,’ says Pengolodh, ‘} with the steed upon which the Lord Oromë rode. When the Quendi asked his name, and if it bore any meaning, Oromë answered: ‘Nahar, and he is called from the sound of his voice, when he is eager to run.’>
<AAm{§45 }But of those hapless who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living hath descended into the pits of Utumno, or hath explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa: that all those of the Quendi that came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty and wickedness were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-06 Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orkor had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance thereof, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindalë before the Beginning: so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orkor loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This maybe was the vilest deed of Melkor and the most hateful to Eru.>

I left the marker CE-EX-06 to make the reference of our discussion clear, but as we decisede know it is no change to the text.
I suppose that the subheading CE-EX-24 can be removed in this case as well, or moved to a later place according to that in AAm.

Gandalf85’s additional points:
1. k -> c: Agreed, I will add these cases to the list of general changes if they are not included already and search the entire text if they are done or not. But fully correct is ‘Cuiviénen’ what so ever it does replace.
While doing this I found that we use only once the word ‘Orocarni’ in the phrase: ‘the {Orokarni}[Orocarni], the Mountains of the East’. Even so that is normaly not the way we do it must we not in this case provide the translation to allowe the connection to the Red Mountains of the Ambarcanta and the Maps? I suppose we exchange ‘Mountains of the East’ with ‘Red Mountains in the East’ and name that change CE-EX-05.4.

2. See posting #42 the removal of this was named CE-EX-05.3.

3. Thank you for pointing these out.

4. You are right, I agree to your suggestion.

5. Agreed.

6. Yes, your wish seems in agreement with ArcusCalion’s latest suggestion and seeing the plans for Volume 3 I can easily agree to this as well. Let us discuss how we handle the original text (which includes a sort of extract of this) when Aiwendil comes to that passage.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-01: Yes, we should definitely include CE-EX-03

CE-EX-06: Looks good. I would simply remove CE-EX-24, especially since it has no basis in Tolkien's writings.

1. Agreed to the change CE-EX-05.4

2. Whoops, I must've missed that. Looks good to me.

[Aiwendil]

I continue to make my way through this slowly. Some more comments for now:

CE-EX-25: I suppose LQ does add some details here that may be worth including, but I think that since we have included sections 41-45 of AAm, we must make a small deletion:

And Oromë looking upon the Elves was filled with love and wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforetold. For {[}so{]} it shall ever be even with the Valar. From without the world, though all things may be forethought in music or foreshown in vision from afar, to those who enter verily into Eä each in its time shall be met at unawares as something new and strange.
CE-EX-25.1{Thus it was that Oromë came upon the Quendi by chance in his wandering, while they dwelt yet silent {upon [read }beside{]} the star-lit mere, {Kuivienen}[Cuivienen], Water of Awakening, in the East of Middle-earth.}

In LQ, this sentence comes almost immediately after it is told that Orome found the Elves, but in our text we have already told about this at some length (from AAm).

CE-SL-11: Following Tolkien’s own change to the text here, I think we have to delete a little bit more:

CE-SL-11{For a while he abode with them and aided them in the making of language; for that was their first work of craft upon Earth, and ever most dear to their hearts, and the fair Elvish speech was sweet in the ears of the Valar. Then swiftly Oromë rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the Elves, and he brought the tidings to Valmar. And the {Gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were amazed at what he told; but}<LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §19 Then swiftly he rode back over land and sea to Valinor, filled with the thought of the beauty of the long-awaited, and he brought the tidings to Valmar.

Tolkien deleted the “for a while he abode with them”, and thus changed the story so that Orome immediately returned to Valinor, and only afterward came and stayed with the Elves for a while at Cuivienen.

CE-EX-26: As ever, I think I’m a little bit more hesitant than others to transplant scattered bits from the Lost Tales into our narrative, but I can make no real objection to this. But there is a ‘may’ that must become ‘might’ in the past tense. Also, I am not completely sure, but I think that in later Quenya, the root vowel is prefixed to a verb in the perfect tense, so it should become utulielto instead of tulielto (cf. utulien aure, ‘the day has come’). So:

CE-EX-26 <LT Oromë {pricks}pricked over the plain, and drawing rein he {shouts}shouted aloud so that all the ears in Valmar {may}might hear him: ‘Utulielto! Utulieito! They have come - they have come!’ Then he {stands}stood midway between the Two Trees and {winds}wound his horn, and the gates of Valmar {are}were opened, and the Vali trooped into the plain, for they guessed that tidings of wonder {have}had come into the world.

CE-EX-27: I’m a little unsure about changing the words of Palurien here to the thoughts of Orome, though I guess it works. More problematic is the use of the word ‘Eldar’ here, since Orome hasn’t yet had a chance to learn their language and name them that.

CE-EX-28: It’s true that Angainor still exists in the later versions, though I must admit that some of the LT detail of its making feel a little out of place to me. But chiefly I worry about the name tilkal and its strange etymology. As far as I can tell, ‘tambe’, ‘latuken’, ‘ilsa’, and ‘kanu’ never show up again after the LT era, and in later Quenya, ‘laure’ is explicitly said to refer to gold as a colour, but not to the metal. I suppose we could try keeping ‘tilka’, but removing the etymology:

CE-EX-28 <LT ; and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals, copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named {therefore} tilkal, {[Footnote in the manuscript: T(ambe) I(lsa) L(atuken) K(anu) A(nga) L(aure). ilsa and laure are the 'magic' names of ordinary telpe and kulu.]} and this had . . .

Incidentally, I have no real problem with the word ‘magic’ here (there are plenty of other, more jarring to me, elements from the LT that we have included in our version), but I will not argue against changing it to ‘power’ either.

There is also a missing change from ‘Angaino’ to ‘Angainor’ just following this. ‘Vorotemnar’ and ‘Ilterindi’ looks fine to me, though.

CE-EX-29: There seems to me to be both some redundancy and some contradiction here between LT, MT, and LQ - notably, that in LQ the Valar go immediately to war and show no intention of “entreating” Melkor to change his ways, so at the very least I think this statement from LT must go. Moreover, I think the MT statement is (aside from being again written with an analytical rather than narrative tone) part of what we might have to consider a projected and unimplementable sketch for a new version of the story, where Utumno is not sacked by the Valar, but rather Melkor guilefully surrenders to them. But I suppose I should consider that when I come to the proper place in reviewing the text. Of more immediate concern is that this statement clearly contradicts LQ, where the intention of the Valar is to defeat Melkor, not merely to provide a “covering action” to defend the Quendi. Findegil has made one change to eliminate this contradiction, in the deletion of “and make an end”, but we still have this:

And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should take up again the mastery of Arda, at whatsoever cost, and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.'

If we do decide to follow the MT idea that the Valar did not expect to defeat Melkor but only went to war intending to give the Elves time to come to Aman, then we must find some way to remove this. It could be done by taking the shorter account from AAm:

. . . and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> CE-SL-11.5<AAm Manwë sat long in thought upon Taniquetil, and he resolved at the last to make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife.> <LQ Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, . . .

At any rate, it seems to me that the MT statement here, even if we decide that its content can be adopted into our version, rather loses its point when removed from its context - that context being that Melkor has now dispersed his power, so that it comes as a surprise to the Valar that they are able to defeat him. So even if we decide to use this paragraph from MT, I’d prefer to find some way to keep the paragraph together in one piece.

I would, therefore, do this:

{But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.}>
{§21} But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-SL-12{fortress}[fortresses] of Melkor in the North CE-SL-12.1{ and make an end.

Where I’ve broken off CE-SL-12.1 as its own number because it is only necessary in case we decide to adopt the MT statement.

CE-EX-30: I’ve gone back and forth on this a little bit, but in the end I don’t think I have any problem with the inclusion of this description of the Valar’s battle array.

Coming back to CE-EX-03, my inclination is still not to include it, as I think the motivation for the council is already very clearly implied, but again, it's a minor point and if others disagree I certainly won't put up a fight.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-25.1: Agreed.

CE-SL-11: Agreed.

CE-EX-26: Agreed.

CE-EX-27: I suppose we can change ‘Eldar’ here to ‘the First-born’.

CE-EX-28: Sad as it is to loos it, I agree to remove the etymology.

CE-EX-29: For me it is MT that we have to follow if it contradicts the earlier story telling. Therefore I agree that we have do something with the speech of Manwë. But I would like to offer an alternative editing:

… and sweet was the Elven-tongue on the ears of the Valar. But> Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, and he sought the counsel of Ilúvatar. And coming then down to {Valmar}[Valimar] he called a conclave of the Great, and thither came even Ulmo from the Outer Sea.
And Manwë said to the Valar: 'This is the counsel of Ilúvatar in my heart: that we should CE-SL-11.5b{take up again the mastery of Arda, }at whatsoever cost{, and}<AAm make war upon Melkor, though Arda should receive yet more hurts in that strife> and deliver the Quendi from the shadows of Melkor.' Then Tulkas was glad; but Aulë was grieved, …

I propose to include the MT statement into CE-EX-39 as a kind of retrospecife.

CE-EX-03: So we will include it, since gandalf85 and me agree that it has some importance.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-EX-25 and CE-SL-11: Agreed

CE-EX-26: The languages are not my strong suit, so I'll defer to you and agree.

CE-EX-27: Good catch! Agreed to changing it to the "First-born".

CE-EX-28: I'm sad to see it go too, but if the etymology doesn't work, it needs to go.

CE-EX-29: We mention how Melkor has dispersed his power into his agents when the Valar confront him. I think splitting up the paragraph from MT works, but I agree that Manwe's speech needs to be modified. I like Fin's edit, the part of that speech that's contradictory is the bit about taking up again the mastery of Arda. The rest of it seems in keeping with the rest of the narrative. I agree that the tonal shift at CE-EX-39 is a bit jarring, but this part of MT is definitely workable in the narrative without doing great violence to it, and since they are Tolkien's latest thoughts we should keep them.

[Aiwendil]

Continuing to work through this slowly, as we now come to what I think may be the most difficult (or at least most contentious) bit.

Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo Vailimo was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches.

I’m unsure about “Falman” and “Vailimo”. I see that ArcusCalion emends “Vailimo” to “Vaiaro”, but what is the source for this?

Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.> Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved. CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuivienen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the far North and began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100}
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.

Here I think we have some redundancy between LQ and AAm, and I also think that the “Never did Melkor forget . . .” passage from LQ is awkwardly placed, as it now interrupts the more vivid telling of the Valar’s march to war. The redundancy is that we describe the damage and geographical changes to the earth twice. I think we could either delete the interruption from LQ, or perhaps just delete the statement about Middle-earth being changed and broken, and change the paragraph divisions slightly:

Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.>
<LQ Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. CE-EX-35.5{In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved.} CE-SL-36{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}>CE-EX-36 <AAm
§48 Melkor met the onset of the Valar in the North-west of Middle-earth, and all that region was much broken. But this first victory of the hosts of the West was swift and easy, and the servants of Melkor fled before them to Utumno. Then the Valar marched over Middle-earth, and they set a guard over Kuivienen; and thereafter the Quendi knew naught of the Great War of the {Gods}[Valar], save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved; and in the North there were lights as of mighty fires. But after two years the Valar passed into the far North and began the long siege of Utumno.
{ 1092-1100}
§49 That siege was long and grievous, and many battles were fought before its gates of which naught but the rumour is known to the Quendi. Middle-earth was sorely shaken in that time, and the Great Sea that sundered it from Aman grew wide and deep. And the lands of the far North were all made desolate in those days, and so have ever remained; for there Utumno was delved exceeding deep, and its pits and caverns reached out far beneath the earth, and they were filled with fires and with great hosts of the servants of Melkor.

CE-EX-37: This addition from LT seems to me to contradict what has just been said (from AAm). In the LT account, the Valar come to the gates of Utumno and immediately break them open (by means of Oromë’s horn). But from AAm we have just said that there was a long and grievous siege, lasting two years, that involved many battles before the gates. One might try to save something of the LT account here by changing it so that after the long siege and battles, Oromë’s horn blast is what finally breaks down the gates, but that invites the question: if that’s all it took, why didn’t they do that right away? I think it’s safer to remove this addition from LT.

CE-EX-39: Now we come to what I’m sure will prove one of the real sticking points. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that the story given in MT VI must be considered a projected change under principle 2b, that we cannot take up. That text does not constitute a narrative; it is a working note, in Tolkien's voice, on changes he intended to make to the story. To make it work as narrative, it is (as I think Findegil's draft shows) necessary to perform a lot of editorial work, and in the end the product is not really satisfactory.

Now, it is true that we have a long-established precedent of not worrying about style, and not worrying if two texts written in very different styles stand next to each other. But as far as I'm concerned, that is about narrative texts in different literary styles - mixing in texts clearly written from an 'external' point of view and in a distinctly non-literary style is something else entirely. Moreover, it's one thing to take a paragraph from one source and a paragraph from another, very different, one; it's again another thing entirely to take two texts that tell utterly different stories, one a full-scale narrative and the other an author's note to himself, and to mangle them together phrase by phrase.

So, I think we are more than justified under principle 2b in rejecting any elements of MT VI that cannot be adopted without butchering the text. The only question in my mind is whether any of it should be adopted, or whether the whole thing must be considered of a piece, and rejected entirely. As I see it, MT VI says the following things:

1. Melkor was, in origin, the greatest of the Valar
2. The Valar went to war with Melkor without any real hope of victory
3. Melkor had dispersed much of his power into his servants and into the very fabric of Arda
4. Manwë and Melkor both become aware of this change in Melkor when they encounter each other
5. Melkor submits, or pretends to submit, to the Valar (rather than being defeated and chained).

Point 1 presents no problem, and we've already incorporated it in chapter 1. Point 2 we have discussed here already, and it doesn't pose any problems for the storyline, though how to incorporate it without mangling the text is an open question. Similar considerations apply to points 3 and 4, I think - they are not problematic from a story point of view, but I think the current way they are incorporated into Findegil's draft is not good. Note that even if we decide that these points are valid, that does not necessarily mean that we must find some way of introducing them into the text - these could be considered simply an extra-textual analysis of the story. Point 5, though, contradicts the narrative texts of this section, and this is the point that I think must be regarded as an unworkable projected change.

So the questions for me are, first, whether we can really consider these separate points or must consider them as a whole and discard the whole thing, and second, if we decide on the former, whether points 2, 3, and 4 can be worked into the text in a reasonable way.