Riddles in the Downs - Page 64 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 02:42 AM

Am at least right in thinking that 'he' is Thingol and 'you' is Beleg?

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

So Anglachel is referenced?

How about Nan Elmoth then? It betrayed Aredhel, and it's where Anglachel was made.

Not Nan Elmoth.

You're looking for an instance of [somebody] warning [somebody else] that "I" [not actually a person] can't be trusted. (You quoted similar advice about Anglachel itself).

Edit: missed your last post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Am at least right in thinking that 'he' is Thingol and 'you' is Beleg?

No... and that's the key to it. There is a passage where somebody is warned about "me" in much the same terms.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 03:54 AM

So Anglachel is involved, yet it isn't. It's referenced, but not really.

It's a first age thing, right?

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

So Anglachel is involved, yet it isn't. It's referenced, but not really.

It's a first age thing, right?

Yes. But Anglachel is involved and is really referenced. That is, part of the riddle is talking about it directly- but it isn't the answer.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 04:09 AM

So the warning happens around the same time?

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 04:12 AM

The Bridge over Narog?

'He' is Ulmo/Cirdan/Gelmir/Arminas, and 'you' is Orodreth.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 04:35 AM

If it's not it, then I can't find such a passage.

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 04:46 AM

1. No, this warning happens earlier. Years earlier, in fact.
2. No, not the bridge.
3. Yes, you can! It's... what shall I say?- not one of the "big" scenes (and doesn't appear in the shorter version of the story), but is significant in its own way.

Maybe try and work out exactly how Anglachel is being referenced, and what "kin" means?

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 05:01 AM

Maybe Anglachel is the 'future kin' of the 'speaker'?

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

1. No, this warning happens earlier. Years earlier, in fact.
2. No, not the bridge.
3. Yes, you can! It's... what shall I say?- not one of the "big" scenes (and doesn't appear in the shorter version of the story), but is significant in its own way.

Maybe try and work out exactly how Anglachel is being referenced, and what "kin" means?

The passage doesn't appear in the Silmarillion?

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 05:59 AM

Still can't find any other object that fits. Unless you mean galvorn?

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 06:14 AM

1. Yes, exactly.
2. No, but I know you're familiar with the source.
3. No, not galvorn.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 06:14 AM

Or maybe the Gaurwaith? They are not technically a person, and Beleg warned Turin that they will fail him.

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Or maybe the Gaurwaith? They are not technically a person, and Beleg warned Turin that they will fail him.

No, you were closer before: it's an object.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 06:22 AM

The only first age sources are Silm, COH, FoG and part of UT. You said it's not Silm and FoG happened long after Anglachel came into the picture. This leaves CoH and part of UT, and neither contains a warning about betrayal.

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

The only first age sources are Silm, COH, FoG and part of UT. You said it's not Silm and FoG happened long after Anglachel came into the picture. This leaves CoH and part of UT, and neither contains a warning about betrayal.

The word "betrayal" isn't used. Nor is the "speaker" implied to be capable of deliberate betrayal, or indeed to be sentient at all- that is not the aspect in which it is "kin" to Anglachel.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 06:48 AM

Well, this one isn't named, but maybe the knife given to Turin by Hurin.

He warned you that I might betray - "But be careful! This blade is sharp, and the steel will serve only the one who knows how to wield it. It will cut your hand just like anything else."
And quick were you to give away- he gave it away almost immediately
Or did you hear a voice within,
The future whisper of my kin? - Anglachel, his second sword

Either that or Angrist.

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, this one isn't named, but maybe the knife given to Turin by Hurin. Either that or Angrist.

You've got it! The answer is indeed Túrin's Birthday Present of Ominous Foreshadowing.

On the morning of Túrin's birthday Húrin gave his son a gift, an Elf-wrought knife; and the hilt and the sheath were silver and black, and he said: "Heir of the House of Hador, here is a gift for the day. But have a care! It is a bitter blade, and steel serves only those that can wield it. It will cut your hand as willingly as ought else."

Well done, and over to you!

Edit: Ah, I see you inserted the full explanation into your post while I was typing this. So yes, that's what I meant.

Galadriel55 · 05-03-2019, 07:10 AM

Nice one, Urwen!

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 07:50 AM

Speaking of non-named things.....

I may be small
But I caused your fall
Something of yours I broke
With one precise stroke

(No hints for this one, even if you ask, because you already have all the hints you need.

)

Huinesoron · 05-03-2019, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Speaking of non-named things.....

I may be small
But I caused your fall
Something of yours I broke
With one precise stroke

(No hints for this one, even if you ask, because you already have all the hints you need.

)

... let it be the wrench. Please.

hS

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

... let it be the wrench. Please.

hS

It's indeed the famous Wrench, from the Tale of Tuor, Maeglin and the Wrench. For the Wrench is dark and full of terrors.

(Sorry not sorry. I couldn't resist using it as the riddle answer.

)

Huinesoron · 05-03-2019, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

It's indeed the famous Wrench, from the Tale of Tuor, Maeglin and the Wrench. For the Wrench is dark and full of terrors.

(Sorry not sorry. I couldn't resist using it as the riddle answer.

)

Never be sorry. It's an amazing answer, and an excellent riddle for it.

("For the wrench had been wrought by" [Rolls master-smith dice] "Eol himself, in the years of darkness ere the sun rose; and it was borne by Maeglin to the city, alone of all the tools he possessed. And until that very day it had lain in the house of that Gnome; and save for the strange mischance that let it tumble from the door even as Tuor was passing, it might have abode there still, until the flames that e'en now consumed Gondolin claimed it.")

Riddle, riddle... how about this:

In memory of my father,
And of his mother's line,
In token of my uncle's loss,
I hold you ever mine.

Though demons foul hold kin of yours,
So too shall kin of mine,
Like Sons of Earth to their own sons,
I pass you down the line.

There is a specific, named answer to this riddle, though if you can get the right concept it might help you find that answer.

hS

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 08:31 AM

Why does your riddle make me think of your theory that the Balrog of Moria has Anguirel.....?

Huinesoron · 05-03-2019, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Why does your riddle make me think of your theory that the Balrog of Moria has Anguirel.....?

Hah! Probably because the 'demon' line is indeed referring to a balrog, though not that balrog.

hS

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 08:42 AM

Ring of Barahir?

Huinesoron · 05-03-2019, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Ring of Barahir?

No.

Out of interest, how did you link that answer to '[A balrog] holds kin of yours'? Ringbearing balrogs is a terrifying notion I don't think Tolkien even considered.

hS

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

No.

Out of interest, how did you link that answer to '[A balrog] holds kin of yours'? Ringbearing balrogs is a terrifying notion I don't think Tolkien even considered.

hS

Well, first I thought of Gurthang, but it broke. And I admit my thoughts wandered down the strange paths from there....

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 08:50 AM

Are the balrogs in question named too?

Huinesoron · 05-03-2019, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Are the balrogs in question named too?

I mean, that's kind of a... how many named balrogs are there?

Let's just say yes, in at least one case.

hS

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 09:02 AM

Dramborleg? Gothmog, the only other named Balrog, wielded a 'black axe', which could be seen as Dramborleg's 'kin'. Dramborleg itself got passed down to the Kings of Numenor, who presumably passed in down their line.

Huinesoron · 05-03-2019, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urwen

Dramborleg? Gothrmog, the only other named Balrog, wielded a 'black axe', which could be seen as Dramborleg's 'kin'. Dramborleg itself got passed down to the Kings of Numenor, who presumably passed in down their line.

Dramborleg it is. The speaker is Tuor; apparently Dramborleg was Huor's axe first, and Hurin famously wielded one at the Nirnaeth; the Haladin were also fond of them, and they were Tuor's grandmother's kin.

Back to you.

hS

Nerwen · 05-03-2019, 09:10 AM

Well, I was just about to post that very guess! So if two such brilliant folk as ourselves independently came to the same conclusion it has to be right... right?

Edit: saw confirmation.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 09:21 AM

Give me some time to make a new one. I'll be with you shortly.

Urwen · 05-03-2019, 12:40 PM

I think that this version is phrased better

You and your companions are alarmed
Your soul is filled with fear
Only you shall be harmed
By me, ere I disappear

Nerwen · 05-04-2019, 04:08 AM

The Witch-king, to Frodo (on Weathertop)?

Urwen · 05-04-2019, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nerwen

The Witch-king, to Frodo (on Weathertop)?

Not a person.

Urwen · 05-04-2019, 10:07 AM

I don't bite.

Nerwen · 05-05-2019, 12:23 AM

So you say...

(Thinking aloud) Not a person. A weapon, perhaps? But why does it "disappear"?

Nerwen · 05-05-2019, 01:47 AM

Now, let's see... the talk of "harming" and "filling souls with fear" suggests something bad... but perhaps Urwen is being sneaky.

So perhaps it's the sword Glamdring, addressing the Great Goblin?

You and your companions are alarmed
Your soul is filled with fear -all the goblins in the cavern were freaking out
Only you shall be harmed
By me, ere I disappear. -Gandalf bisected the Great Goblin, before sheathing his sword.

05-03-2019, 02:42 AM	#2521
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Am at least right in thinking that 'he' is Thingol and 'you' is Beleg? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 03:54 AM	#2523
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	So Anglachel is involved, yet it isn't. It's referenced, but not really. It's a first age thing, right? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 04:09 AM	#2525
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	So the warning happens around the same time? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 04:12 AM	#2526
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	The Bridge over Narog? 'He' is Ulmo/Cirdan/Gelmir/Arminas, and 'you' is Orodreth. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 04:35 AM	#2527
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	If it's not it, then I can't find such a passage. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 04:46 AM	#2528
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	1. No, this warning happens earlier. Years earlier, in fact. 2. No, not the bridge. 3. Yes, you can! It's... what shall I say?- not one of the "big" scenes (and doesn't appear in the shorter version of the story), but is significant in its own way. Maybe try and work out exactly how Anglachel is being referenced, and what "kin" means? __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

05-03-2019, 05:01 AM	#2529
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Maybe Anglachel is the 'future kin' of the 'speaker'? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 05:59 AM	#2531
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Still can't find any other object that fits. Unless you mean galvorn? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 06:14 AM	#2532
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	1. Yes, exactly. 2. No, but I know you're familiar with the source. 3. No, not galvorn. __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

05-03-2019, 06:14 AM	#2533
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Or maybe the Gaurwaith? They are not technically a person, and Beleg warned Turin that they will fail him. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 06:22 AM	#2535
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	The only first age sources are Silm, COH, FoG and part of UT. You said it's not Silm and FoG happened long after Anglachel came into the picture. This leaves CoH and part of UT, and neither contains a warning about betrayal. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 06:48 AM	#2537
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Well, this one isn't named, but maybe the knife given to Turin by Hurin. He warned you that I might betray - "But be careful! This blade is sharp, and the steel will serve only the one who knows how to wield it. It will cut your hand just like anything else." And quick were you to give away- he gave it away almost immediately Or did you hear a voice within, The future whisper of my kin? - Anglachel, his second sword Either that or Angrist. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 05-03-2019 at 07:03 AM.

05-03-2019, 07:10 AM	#2539
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,517	Nice one, Urwen! __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

05-03-2019, 07:50 AM	#2540
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Speaking of non-named things..... I may be small But I caused your fall Something of yours I broke With one precise stroke (No hints for this one, even if you ask, because you already have all the hints you need. ) __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 08:31 AM	#2544
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Why does your riddle make me think of your theory that the Balrog of Moria has Anguirel.....? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 08:42 AM	#2546
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Ring of Barahir? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 08:50 AM	#2549
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Are the balrogs in question named too? __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 09:02 AM	#2551
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Dramborleg? Gothmog, the only other named Balrog, wielded a 'black axe', which could be seen as Dramborleg's 'kin'. Dramborleg itself got passed down to the Kings of Numenor, who presumably passed in down their line. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia. Last edited by Urwen; 05-03-2019 at 09:09 AM.

05-03-2019, 09:10 AM	#2553
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Well, I was just about to post that very guess! So if two such brilliant folk as ourselves independently came to the same conclusion it has to be right... right? Edit: saw confirmation. __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

05-03-2019, 09:21 AM	#2554
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	Give me some time to make a new one. I'll be with you shortly. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-03-2019, 12:40 PM	#2555
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	I think that this version is phrased better You and your companions are alarmed Your soul is filled with fear Only you shall be harmed By me, ere I disappear __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-04-2019, 04:08 AM	#2556
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	The Witch-king, to Frodo (on Weathertop)? __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

05-04-2019, 10:07 AM	#2558
Urwen Spirit of Nen Lalaith Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Meneltarma Posts: 5,408	I don't bite. __________________ Tuor: Yeah, it was me who broke [Morleg's] arm. With a wrench. Specifically, this wrench. I am suffering from Maeglinomaniacal Maeglinophilia.

05-05-2019, 12:23 AM	#2559
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	So you say... (Thinking aloud) Not a person. A weapon, perhaps? But why does it "disappear"? __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.

05-05-2019, 01:47 AM	#2560
Nerwen Wisest of the Noldor Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: ˙˙˙ssɐןƃ ƃuıʞooן ǝɥʇ ɥƃnoɹɥʇ Posts: 6,694	Now, let's see... the talk of "harming" and "filling souls with fear" suggests something bad... but perhaps Urwen is being sneaky. So perhaps it's the sword Glamdring, addressing the Great Goblin? You and your companions are alarmed Your soul is filled with fear -all the goblins in the cavern were freaking out Only you shall be harmed By me, ere I disappear. -Gandalf bisected the Great Goblin, before sheathing his sword. __________________ "Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo.