Tidbits of Curiosity

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Oh, and....what of Hurin? Like Tar-Miriel, he too was taken by the sea.....

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hurin... well, unlike Elwing, he doesn't fit entirely into the 'innocent victim' mode. He was captured while fighting, and when he was released he (accidentally) revealed Gondolin, (deliberately) gave Thingol a cursed horde, and (totally deliberately) brought civil war to Brethil. I think that takes him outside the 'Ulmo's tragic innocents' archetype (which would include Tar-Miriel, and arguably Nienor as well), so I don't know that he would be saved.

And if he was... what would Ulmo do with him? He has nothing to go back to - he's already passed through Dor-Lomin and left it again. He can't go to Eressea like Frodo would - the way, so to speak, is shut.

Hurin, like his daughter, killed himself deliberately because he had nothing left to live for. Elwing and Miriel, in contrast, died because of the actions of others.

Now, if you'd said Amroth and Nimrodel, you might have a case... she does end up having a river named for her, after all.

hS

Except that they're all victims.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Except that they're all victims.

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Yes; but so is everyone. That's what the Marring of Arda is. But Hurin actively threw himself into his fate, by battle and then by his actions after his release. Elwing was just living her life, and Tar-Miriel was forced into hers. Neither of them played an active role in bringing about their own misery.

Does that mean Hurin should have done differently? Certainly not in the Nirnaeth! But it does mean he chose to accept the potential consequences of his actions, whereas Elwing and Tar-Miriel didn't have that choice.

We're building a house of cards on a single example here (since I don't think Voronwe can be included - he was saved because Ulmo needed a messenger), but I think 'Ulmo saves those who had no way to avoid their fate' is a decent theory. (It's also what Earendil's embassy was based on: it's not the Exile Noldor he pleads for mostly, it's the Elves and Men who had no part in the Fall, but still suffer its consequences.)

hS

If that is true, then the House of Hurin is on top of that least, for none of them had any way to avoid their fate; because, as you said, Morgoth holds power over all of Arda, and there is no escape from it. Only one member of that House of Hurin did escape his power: the youngest one.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If that is true, then the House of Hurin is on top of that least, for none of them had any way to avoid their fate; because, as you said, Morgoth holds power over all of Arda, and there is no escape from it. Only one member of that House of Hurin did escape his power: the youngest one.

All of them escaped it, and in the same way: by dying.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

All of them escaped it, and in the same way: by dying.

But not before their lives were thoroughly ruined by an evil God.

[Urwen]

I just read a story, and it got me thinking: how much of the history we read is actually the truth, and how much is the case of 'history is written by the winners'? Were Maeglin and other demonized people (Beruthiel, Ulfang and co. etc.) truly evil, or were they presented as such by those who wrote their history?

(I left Pharazon out because I hate him)