'Obscure Character(s) you dislike most' by Sauron 666

[Urwen]

For me, it would be Ar-Pharazon beyond a doubt.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

For me, it would be Ar-Pharazon beyond a doubt.

I'm going to go more obscure than that and name the Ruling Queens of Numenor - all three of them.

• Tar-Ancalime was a nightmare. She was surrounded by some pretty spiteful people (both her parents, and her husband), but she flipped from 'Dad should have given Mum her way' to 'everyone must do things my way', up to and including 'no woman of my house can get married'. Note that both of her granddaughters flatly refused to take the throne (and yes, they too were subject to the 'no marriage' rule ).
• Tar-Telperien, great-granddaughter of the above, was insanely prideful. Her reign is characterised by refusals: she refused to marry, refused to honour the alliance with Lindon, and ultimately refused to yield the sceptre before her death. There's a reason for my 'Witch-Queen of Numenor' theory.
• Tar-Vanimelde, nearly a thousand years later, was useless. She didn't rule at all, allowing her husband to do so in his stead, ultimately leading to his usurpation of the sceptre after her death. You could read her as being silenced by an overbearing husband - except that Tolkien makes a point of telling us that she just didn't want to bother.

Between them, I think the three thoroughly poisoned Numenor's view of women in power. I think their awfulness made it easier for the people to accept Pharazon's usurpation of Miriel's power (and in fairness, from a Numenorean perspective, an elf-loving Tar-Miriel would have been Terrible Queen Number Four), and I think it also led directly to Elendil's/his successors' revocation of the New Law of Succession. Without them, there could have been Queens Regnant of Gondor, Arnor, and Arthedain, and Chieftainesses of the Dunedain.

(From an external perspective, I almost wonder if Tolkien created them specifically to justify the fact that he hadn't given Gondor any ruling queens...)

hS

[Urwen]

I disagree. She was supposed to redeem Numenor, not destroy it, unlike her power-greedy idiot husband. He elevated Sauron to his chief councilor, after all. And we know what happened to last three people who let someone with an evil heart advise them. Then again, he himself had an evil heart too. As one fan put it: 'Who does he think he is - Maeglin?'

For he too married his close kin. He was surrounded by like-minded people, who cheered for his act of marrying close kin like it is nothing out of the ordinary, despite there being a precedent to it being unacceptable (Silmarillion, chapter 16).

That might be part of the reason I hate him, actually. He was lauded for this, while Lomion - his predecessor - fell into infamy for attempting to do the same thing. Another reason is Tar-Miriel herself, as he took her chance to rule (and redeem the land and it's people) away from her. Say what you want about me, but I stand by the characters I like.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I disagree.

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I think you've misinterpreted what I said. By 'from a Numenorean perspective' I meant that most of Numenor was King's Men by this point, so a second ruler from the Faithful would be a bad thing from their point of view.

hS

Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Not to be mean or anything, but I don't care what they think.

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either.

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That's okay; I doubt they worry overmuch about your opinions either.

It's still an interesting question: if Ancalime, Telperien, and Vanimelde had been good rulers, would even the King's Men have been more inclined to press for Tar-Miriel to be allowed to take the sceptre in her own right? Would she have been more able to leverage her position to refuse Pharazon's demand of marriage? That very much does depend on how they think.

(Of course, if Ancalime had been nicer, her granddaughter would probably have been the second Ruling Queen, and the whole Line of Numenor would be different. So maybe it's best not to think too hard about it...)

hS

'If X was in a different situation, would they have turned out differently?'

For most of my favorites, and many others, the answer would have been 'yes'. And that's why we have fanfiction. For instance, I can imagine Tar-Miriel ruling as she should've; I could imagine Curse of Morgoth being lifted; I can imagine Lomion as a good person; I can imagine Maedhros with both hands intact etc., but that's neither here nor there.