Of Pharazon and Miriel

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Absence of the answer who kills him and when? Did you even read my post? I said Anarion would kill him. :c

There, I even highlighted this so you can see it.

Ah - yes, I did miss it; I caught the part about him marrying her but not the part where he kills her. I think that would have to fall somewhere in Scenario 3, but with a different killer - Anarion wasn't old enough to pull off a pre-Sauron assassination.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Also, I guess you won't be responding to 'Tidbits of Curiosity' thread or my parody thread anymore.

No, I won't reply to every thread, just like you don't reply to every thread anybody else posts. I reply to the ones where I'm interested in the topic and have something to say, just as you do. When I no longer have anything to say, I stop replying.

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah, but in case, I really need you, or someone who is equally knowledgeable, to analyze these lyrics for me......

[Huinesoron]

While we're doing Miriel AUs, how about this one for the mix:

What if Tar-Miriel had survived the Downfall?

It's not that hard to arrange - she just has to get on a boat with Elendil. Then you have a High Queen over Gondor and Arnor, and assuming she finds an heir - perhaps, in an ironic twist of fate, she marries (a widowed) Elendil for political reasons and has a child - that line can continue even after Isildur's death.

How would things have been different, if the two Dunedain kingdoms had been politically unified (despite having their own lines of what I assume we'd call Princes)? Any thoughts?

hS

[Urwen]

I suspect that this was indeed the case. They could have spirited her away as one of their own, and written that she had died just in case their enemies get their hands on their written annals. In actuality, she died in Gondor.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

While we're doing Miriel AUs, how about this one for the mix:

What if Tar-Miriel had survived the Downfall?

It's not that hard to arrange - she just has to get on a boat with Elendil. Then you have a High Queen over Gondor and Arnor, and assuming she finds an heir - perhaps, in an ironic twist of fate, she marries (a widowed) Elendil for political reasons and has a child - that line can continue even after Isildur's death.

How would things have been different, if the two Dunedain kingdoms had been politically unified (despite having their own lines of what I assume we'd call Princes)? Any thoughts?

hS

There's a few wrinkles here--first of which is Tar-Míriel's age at the time of the Downfall. It was the shadow of age falling on Pharazôn that helped Sauron motivate him toward sailing West. He and Míriel are contemporaries, so even if they're of the line of Elros AND still rather short of the historical norms there, they're on the back nine of life. When is Elrosian menopause?

But let's say that the window is just open enough that a baby is born in the first years of Arnor--there's still some question whether she would be the Queen-Regnant or the Queen-Consort of the Exiled Dúnedain. In the canon, Arnor and Gondor are clearly constituted as new realms: Elendil is king not because he's got the best surviving Elrosian claim, but because he is the founder of Arnor (and of Gondor because his sons submit to him). Whether this changes with Míriel in the picture is a good question, because it definitely seems likely to me that the Exiles see Arnor and Gondor as a new beginning (and this whole line of speculation does stem from questioning how the Exiles saw Queenship in light of the Númenórean experience).

Maybe the best answer to posit is a joint rule--Thingol and Melian, Galadriel and Celeborn-style. This still doesn't mean that a descendant of them both would necessarily be King after Isildur--not if Isildur is king at all! If Isildur is still taken to succeed Elendil after the Last Alliance, then the principle of "normal" primogeniture seems to be intact: i.e. Isildur's sons still have the senior claim over any of his younger brothers. Granted, it's easy to see a full-grown half-brother of Isildur asserting his claim ahead of Valandil's in Arnor, but I *can't* see Meneldil son of Anárion letting such a scamp like that get ahead of him (and, remember, we're told that Meneldil was the last baby born in Númenor amongst the Faithful, so we're talking about a man OLDER than Elendil/Míriel's baby). If Meneldil was glad to see Isildur gone to Arnor and would not accept Valandil as a High King over him, then it's hard to see him accepting an even younger branch of the family as High King--far more likely you get an EARLY Kinslaying--perhaps with Meneldil backing Valandil's claim or asserting Gondor's complete independence not merely de facto, as happened canonically, but by war--or at least de iure.

Who, if anyone, could judge that legal claim is... unclear. Meneldil could just declare it (much as the Gondorian stewards would for a similar claim in Arvedui's day), asserting that Gondor was not a colony of Númenor, but a new establishment under Isildur and Anárion--and as the heir of the second, deputised as sole king by the first, the Heirs of the defunct Númenórean realm would have no claim to the overlordship of Gondor, a separate realm. Valinor can't be appealed to for a ruling, and I doubt that Elrond would be either interested in meddling OR accepted as a definite authority.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

But let's say that the window is just open enough that a baby is born in the first years of Arnor--there's still some question whether she would be the Queen-Regnant or the Queen-Consort of the Exiled Dúnedain. In the canon, Arnor and Gondor are clearly constituted as new realms: Elendil is king not because he's got the best surviving Elrosian claim, but because he is the founder of Arnor (and of Gondor because his sons submit to him). Whether this changes with Míriel in the picture is a good question, because it definitely seems likely to me that the Exiles see Arnor and Gondor as a new beginning (and this whole line of speculation does stem from questioning how the Exiles saw Queenship in light of the Númenórean experience).

One point that's worth considering is the divine role of the Kings of Numenor. They were the only ones allowed to speak on the Hallows of Meneltarma - the only ones allowed to pray to Iluvatar. Elendil usurps that right (in a nice way, but he does), and the Stewards do so again later (Cirion swears by the Name, asserting that High Priestly authority), but would that have happened if the legitimate High Priest(ess) was still alive? Probably not, is my thought - but on the other hand, Miriel was probably canny enough to declare Isildur her heir and give him the right.

Originally Posted by Formendacil

This still doesn't mean that a descendant of them both would necessarily be King after Isildur--not if Isildur is king at all! If Isildur is still taken to succeed Elendil after the Last Alliance, then the principle of "normal" primogeniture seems to be intact: i.e. Isildur's sons still have the senior claim over any of his younger brothers. Granted, it's easy to see a full-grown half-brother of Isildur asserting his claim ahead of Valandil's in Arnor, but I *can't* see Meneldil son of Anárion letting such a scamp like that get ahead of him (and, remember, we're told that Meneldil was the last baby born in Númenor amongst the Faithful, so we're talking about a man OLDER than Elendil/Míriel's baby). If Meneldil was glad to see Isildur gone to Arnor and would not accept Valandil as a High King over him, then it's hard to see him accepting an even younger branch of the family as High King--far more likely you get an EARLY Kinslaying--perhaps with Meneldil backing Valandil's claim or asserting Gondor's complete independence not merely de facto, as happened canonically, but by war--or at least de iure.

Who, if anyone, could judge that legal claim is... unclear. Meneldil could just declare it (much as the Gondorian stewards would for a similar claim in Arvedui's day), asserting that Gondor was not a colony of Númenor, but a new establishment under Isildur and Anárion--and as the heir of the second, deputised as sole king by the first, the Heirs of the defunct Númenórean realm would have no claim to the overlordship of Gondor, a separate realm. Valinor can't be appealed to for a ruling, and I doubt that Elrond would be either interested in meddling OR accepted as a definite authority.

You're... probably right about Meneldil. The collapse of the Arnorian claim to the High Kingship is liable to be repeated in any scenario; it's only if you can establish a strong High King independent of Arnor that you have any hope.

So how about this: Elendil was the same age as Miriel, and he was still fighting to his death at age 322. That's really old for a late Numenorean - Tar-Palantir barely topped 200. To match it you have to go back to somewhere around Tar-Vanimelde, who lived 360 years (and Numenorean women were apparently longer-lived than the men).

So how does the picture change if Tar-Miriel, as sole High Queen after Elendil's death, continues to rule for another 40 years? That's plenty of time to pick a decent heir - either her own child, or one of the two kings at the time.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not sure that Elendil usurped the role- he was after all the eldest surviving descendant of Elros. And if that was in the female line, well- that would apply to Tar-Miriel too. (Tolkien played his games with the succession law, I believe, as a way to make the Lords of Andunie the "real" true line).

I don't believe it was a usurpation of that high-priestly role when Cirion invoked the Name in his oath to Eorl. While such an oath was a matter of dreadful import and solemnity (nobody had forgotten Feanor and his sons!), it was an oath which in theory anyone could take, prince and pauper alike. (I have a notion some of the dockworkers down on the Harlond invoked the Name rather more than the official historians ever admitted in writing.)

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So how does the picture change if Tar-Miriel, as sole High Queen after Elendil's death, continues to rule for another 40 years? That's plenty of time to pick a decent heir - either her own child, or one of the two kings at the time.

Well, things are definitely going to change--if nothing else, I daresay Meneldil would bend the knee to Miriel in a way he would not have to a child Valandil. And perhaps a few decades is all Valandil would need to reach an age where he could succeed to the High Kingship and hope to rule.

That is assuming, of course, that Miriel doesn't attempt to alter (well, or establish...) the laws of succession in favour of a child of her own. That would probably ally cousins Valandil and Meneldil quite quickly--unless Miriel manipulates things early on. Perhaps, since he doesn't inherit Arnor yet, Isildur doesn't leave Gondor and rules it alone--or Meneldil is very much a junior partner.

Of course, if Isildur never goes to Arnor, we have a far worse situation than Boromir or Denethor getting the One Ring: we have a potential new Witch-king possibly sitting and fretting over his stepmother (even if they got along great before, who knows how the lust for power driven by Ring will affect that) in Osgiliath. Valandil probably isn't important at all at this point, since his three elder brothers are living--unless Isildur goes to war and Miriel needs a hostage.

So... maybe Arnor comes out ahead with Queen Miriel, but I can see Gondor not making it in one piece out of the first century.


Also, on the note of Miriel's High Priestliness: I don't think this is something to disregard entirely, but High Priesthood is tied to a temple. Certainly, this is true of the Jewish priesthood that is the best model we have for the Numenoreans--once the temple in Jerusalem is lost, there are priests, but their priestly function is limited. And we know Meneltarma is important to the Elrosian priesthood: the only things they are recorded to do take place there.

[Urwen]

I drew the portrait of true ruler of Numenor, sitting upon her throne.