Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Findegil]

I started this posting some time before the death of Christopher Tolkien. But as it has happened now, this seems to be a kind of showing respect to him and his work; even so I am sure that we all have had that before.
Coming back to the matter of the Nauglamír made for Finrod. I have reread all the text we have and our discussions. And looking at it with grater distance, this might be again a case where we were driven away from the ture solution by the fact that our editing has a lot of very fine details, which would a shame to be lost. The result I came to now mihgt be a relieve for some (lindil are you still with us) and a no go for others. Therefore as always, please feel free to disagree with me.
I will use my references from posting #64:
‘[b]text X[b]’: A note containing the story of the Nauglamír made for Finrod and being the sole treasure brought by Húrin to Menegroth.
A) Christopher Tolkiens treatment of the Story in Sil77.
B) Christopher Tolkiens not giving us ‘text X’ in HoME and his A note on chapter 22 Of the Ruin of Doriath.
C) The footnote from B&L.

For all we know ‘text X’ does only stat two things:
1. The Nauglamir was made for Felagund by Dwarves long before the Fall of Doriath
2. The Nauglamír was the sole treasure that Húrin brought from Nargothrond and gave to Thingol.
That said ‘text X’ does not contradict the following features of other sources:
- Húrin had a band of followers, when he came to Nargothrond.
- The followers took the complete horad from Nargothrond.
- Húrin followers died by querrals on the way.

Of course it is ture as Christopher Tolkien said that it ruines the gesture if Húrin must fetch Thingols help to get the treasure to Menegroth with which he then tries to humiliate Thingol. And to reinstall the battle between Húrins men and Thingols Elves is as well out of question. But what if ‘text X’ was Tolkiens way out of this dilema:
Húrin took only the Nauglamír as it was the single most valuable pice, but his men took the complete treasure from Nargothrond. But then they where killed by quarrels on the way.
Lets set that part out first:

§273 (§3b) RD-EX-08 <TT Now therefore when those {Elves}[Men] approached the dwarf stood before the doors of the cave that was once the abode of {Galweg}[Orodreth], and he cried: ‘What will ye with me, O outlaws of the hills?’>
§3c (§274) RD-EX-09 <QS77 But Húrin said: 'Who are you, that would hinder me from entering the house of Finrod Felagund?'
§275 (§4a) QS77 Then the Dwarf answered: 'I am Mîm; and before the proud ones came from over the Sea, Dwarves delved the halls of Nulukkhizdīn. I have but returned to take what is mine; for I am the last of my people.'
RD-EX-08b<TT But {Úrin}[Húrin] answered: 'We come to take what is not thine.' Then said {that dwarf, and his name was }Mîm: 'O RD-EX-09.1{Úrin}, little did I think to{ see thee,} a lord of Men, with such a rabble. Hearken now to the words of Mîm{ the fatherless}, and depart, touching not this gold no more than were it venomous fires. For has not {Glorund}[Glaurung] lain long years upon it, and the evil of the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth] is on it, and no good can it bring to Man or Elf, but I, only I, can ward it, Mîm the dwarf, and by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself.'
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that RD-EX-09.2{he bid them seize it all, and }Mîm {stood by and watched, and he }broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life. RD-EX-11.5c <QS77 Then you shall enjoy your inheritance no longer,{' said Húrin; '}for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband, and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'
Then Mîm in great fear besought Húrin to take what he would, but to spare his life; but Húrin gave no heed to his prayer, and slew him there before the doors of Nargothrond.>
§278 (§6) But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed. RD-EX-11.51b<TT
><Lay of the Children of Húrin The dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[traitorous Mîm] __ by a {beech}[tree] standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the {tree}[beech]. [5]
He bargained {the blood __ of his brothers} for gold [__ the blood of his guests] {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by {an orc-}[a cruel ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
RD-EX-11.52<QS77 Then {he}Húrin entered in, and stayed a while in that dreadful place, where the treasures of Valinor lay strewn upon the floors in darkness and decay; but it is told that when Húrin came forth from the wreck of Nargothrond and stood again beneath the sky he bore with him out of all that great hoard but one thing only.>
RD-EX-11.53 <TT Then {Úrin wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he}[Húrin] bid {them}his men seize {it }all the treasure of Nargothrond.>
RD-EX-24b TN Now such mighty heaps of gold have never since been gathered in one place; and some thereof was wrought to cups, to basons, and to dishes, and hilts there were for swords, and scabbards, and sheaths for daggers; but RD-EX-26 {the most}a part was of red gold unwrought lying in masses and in bars. The value of that hoard no man could count, for amid the gold lay many gems, and these were very beautiful to look upon, for RD-EX-27 {the fathers of the Rodothlim}[the people of Finarfin] had brought with them out of Valinor a portion of that boundless treasury the {Noldoli}[Noldor] had there possessed.>
RD-EX-11.54<§279 TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and they murmured at that, but he said: ‘Are ye become as the drakes of {Melko}[Morgoth], that would lie and wallow in gold and seek no other joy? A sweeter life shall ye have in the court of that king of greed, an ye bear such treasury to him, than all the gold of Valinor can get you in the empty woods.’
§280 (§9) TT Now his heart was bitter against {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and he desired to have a vengeance on him, as may be seen. So great was that hoard that great though {Úrin}[Húrin]'s company might be scarce could they bear it to the caves of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king, and some 'tis said was left behind and {some}[much] was lost upon the way, and evil has followed its finders for ever.> (§8) RD-SL-05b {And}For the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went {unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves}on.

Comments on the changes:
RD-EX-08b: I adde this marker only for clearness of reference.
RD-EX-09.1: I have skipt the reference to Húrin in Mîm’s answer. How could Mîm idntify Húrin as up to that point he did not name himself. And if he did why would he fear for his life at once?
RD-EX-09.2: Okay, here the real changes begin. I moved the taking of the treasure to a later point to give Húrin a chance to go in alone and catch the Nauglamír, so it is for the worth of Húrins men that made Mîm start his cursing.
RD-EX-11.5c: At this point only, when he had launched his attaked Mîm that Húrin does reveal his identiy to Mîm.
RD-EX-11.51b: I think this slow dying of Mîm we have already discussed.
RD-EX-11.52: Now Húrin goes in alone to catch the Nauglamír. This is not necessarly the story as told in ’Text X’ but it is the best text that we can use.
RD-EX-11.53: This addition is necessary to tell that in the end the hoard was taken by Húrins men.
RD-EX-24b, RD-EX-26 & RD-EX-27: I moved this from the point where in the Lost Tales the treasure was described in Menegroth to here, because otherwise we have no description of the hoard left in our story.
RD-EX-11.54: I inserted that marker only for clearness of reference with the new additions. And I changed ‘some was lost’ to ‘much was lost’ since now only the Nauglamír that Húrin carried himself came in the end to Menegroth.
RD-SL-05b: The change form ‘And’ to ‘For’ at the beginning makes this to an explaintion why much of the treasure was lost. And at the end I changed the text so that Húrin does not begged help for the transport but goes to Menegroth alone and with only what he had chosen as specially precious and ‘usefull’ for his plan.

As Húrins men were killed on the way, so the hoard was lost. So in the end only Húrin came to Menegroth and he carried only the Nauglamír, This of course makes some changes necessary in the farther text:

RD-EX-11.5 <WH, Note 57
Húrin in Doriath
>§281 (§10a) RD-SL-06b <TT Yet in the end {that laden host}Húrin alone came to the {bridge before the doors}[border of Doriath], and being asked by the guards {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Say to the king that {Úrin}[Húrin] the Steadfast is come bearing gifts{,’ and}.’ And when this was done{.}>, <Year 502 of The Grey Annals, WH Húrin {is}was admitted in pity.>
§282 (§10b) RD-EX-12b <TT {Then Úrin let bear all that magnificence before the king, but it was hidden in sacks or shut in boxes of rough wood; and Tinwelint}[Thingol] greeted {Úrin}[Húrin] with joy and with amaze and bid him thrice welcome, and he and all his court arose in honour of that lord of Men; but {Úrin}[Húrin]'s heart was blind by reason of his tormented years and of the lies of {Melko}[Morgoth], and he said: ‘Nay, O King, I do not desire to hear such words - but say only, where is {Mavin}[Morwen] my wife, and knowest thou what death did {Nienóri}[Niënor] my daughter die?’>
§283 (§11) RD-EX-13 <QS77 Well{well} did {he}[Thingol] understand Húrin's intent; but being filled with pity he restrained his wrath, and endured Húrin's scorn,> RD-EX-13.5 <Q30 and long he bore with Húrin.> RD-EX-14b <TT Then did {Úrin}[Húrin] fiercely tell that tale, and the king and all his folk about him hid their faces for great ruth, but {Úrin}[Húrin] said: ‘Nay, had you such a heart as have the least of Men, never would they have been lost; but lo, I bring you now a payment in full for the troubles of your puny band that went against {Glorund}[Glaurung] the drake, and deserting gave up my dear ones to his power. Gaze, O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], sweetly on my {gifts}gift, for methinks the lustre of gold is all your heart contains.’>
RD-EX-17b <QS77 Húrin {made no answer to the King, but }drew forth from beneath his cloak that one thing which he had taken with him out of Nargothrond; and that was no lesser treasure than the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves, that was made for Finrod Felagund long years before by the craftsmen of Nogrod and Belegost, most famed of all their works in the Elder Days, and prized by Finrod while he lived above all the treasures of Nargothrond. And Húrin cast it at the feet of Thingol with wild and bitter words.
‘Receive thou thy fee,' he cried, 'for thy fair keeping of my children and my wife! For this is the Nauglamír, whose name is known to many among Elves and Men, RD-EX-15b <TT bought by the death of {Nienóri}[Niënor] with the blood of Túrin slayer of the worm.>{and} And I bring it to thee out of the darkness of Nargothrond, where Finrod thy kinsman left it behind him when he set forth with Beren son of Barahir to fulfil the errand of Thingol of Doriath! RD-EX-15c <TT Take it, O craven king, and be glad that some Men be brave to win thee riches.'>
§285 (§15) Yet Thingol would not take the RD-EX-17.5{hoard, and long he bore with Húrin}necklace; but now {Húrin scorned him,}RD-EX-18 <TT{Then} were {Úrin}[Húrin]'s words more than {Tinwelint}[Thingol] could endure, and he said: ‘What meanest thou, child of Men, and wherefore upbraidest thou me? Long did I foster thy son and forgave him the evil of his deeds, and afterward thy wife I succoured, giving way against my counsel to her wild desires. {Melko}[Morgoth] it is that hates thee and not I. Yet what is it to me - and wherefore dost thou of the uncouth race of Men endure to upbraid a king of the Eldalië? Lo! in {Palisor}[Cuiviénen] my life began years uncounted before the first of Men awoke. Get thee gone, O {Úrin}[Húrin], for {Melko}[Morgoth] hath bewitched thee, and take thy riches with thee’ - but he forebore to slay or to bind {Úrin}[Húrin] in spells, remembering his ancient valiance in the Eldar's cause.>
§286 (§16) RD-SL-07 {and wandered forth in quest of Morwen his wife, but it is not said that he found her ever upon the earth;}<QS77 {then he}Then Húrin turned away, and passed out from the Thousand Caves, and all that saw him fell back before his face; and none sought to withstand his going, nor did any know whither he went>; {and}but some have said that he cast himself at last into the western sea, and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men. RD-EX-19 But<TT his words living after him bred estrangement between Elves and Men.>
§287 (§17a) RD-EX-20b <TN {'Behold then,' said Ailios, 'in}In great grief gazed the king upon {Úrin}[Húrin] as he left the hall, and he was weary for the evil of {Melko}[Morgoth] that thus deceived all hearts; yet tells the tale that so potent were the spells that Mîm {the fatherless }had woven about that dragon hoard that, even as {it}the Nauglamír lay upon the floor of the king's halls shining strangely in the light of the torches that burnt there, already were all who looked upon it touched by its subtle evil.>

RD-SL-06b: Here I changed ‘the laden host’ to ‘Húrin alone’.
RD-EX-12b: Here Again Húrins men are skipt.
RD-EX-14b: At the end of this § we have to change ‘gifts’ to the singular ‘gift’ of the Nauglamír.
RD-EX-16: Is gone since it was a change in a part that spoke about Húrins men.
RD-EX-17b: I tooke more of Sil77 as it is here the best representation oft he content of ‘text X‘.
RD-EX-15b & RD-EX-15c: These two pessages from TT I have introduced into the Sil77passage.
RD-EX-17.5: Of course this reference to the horad must be changed to the necklace alone.
RD-EX-20b: Here again we have to change the reference. I found ‘that horad’ is no longer sufficient as now only the necklace is actually present.
RD-SL-08 to RD-SL-10: All the rest of this sub-cahpter dealt with Húrins men and is therefore gone.

In the Rest of the chapter only smaller references must be changed:

RD-EX-21 <WH
The Nauglamír
Necklace of the Dwarves
>§291 (§22) RD-EX-22b <TN Now came {Gwenniel}[Melian] to {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and said: ‘Touch not this {gold}necklace, for my heart tells me it is RD-EX-23b trebly cursed. Cursed indeed by the dragon's breath, and cursed by {thy}his lieges' blood that moistens it, and the death of those they slew; but some more bitter and more binding ill methinks hangs over it that I may not see.’
§292 (§23) RD-EX-24b TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, and he bade {gather it up and }cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him.>
...
§294 (§24b) RD-EX-29b <TN Again looked {Tinwelint}[Thingol] upon the gold, and it shone yet more alluring fair, nor ever had the sparkle of the gems seemed so brilliant>. Then the enchantment of the accursed dragon {gold}[hoard] began to fall even upon the king of Doriath, and long he sat and gazed upon it, and the seed of the love of gold that was in his heart was waked to growth. Wherefore he summoned the greatest of all craftsmen that now were in the western world, since Nargothrond was no more (and Gondolin was not known), the Dwarves of Nogrod{ and Belegost}, that they might fashion the {gold and silver and the gems (for much was yet unwrought) into countless vessels and fair things; and a }marvellous necklace of great beauty {they should make, whereon }to hang the Silmaril theron.> RD-EX-30 <QS77 For as the years passed Thingol’s thought turned unceasingly to the jewel of Fëanor, and became bound to it, and he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury; and he was minded now to bear it with him always, waking and sleeping.>
...
§296 (§27) But the Dwarves coming were stricken at once with the lust and desire of the treasure, and they plotted treachery. They said one to another: 'Is not this wealth as much the right of the Dwarves as of the elvish king, and was it not wrested evilly from Mîm?' Yet also they lusted for the Silmaril. RD-EX-35b <TN But as yet {the}their <editorial bridge treacherous> designs{ of Ufedhin} came to nought, for in no wise would {Tinwelint}[Thingol] suffer {or him or those of} the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] to depart to Nogrod with or without {that portion of the unwrought gold that yet remained}the Necklace and the Stone, and he said: ‘How shall it be thought that after the weariness of your{ burdened} journeys hither I should let you so soon be gone, to noise the lack of courtesy of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] abroad in Nogrod? Stay now awhile and rest and feast, and afterward shall ye have the {gold that remains}Nauglamír and the Silmaril to work your pleasure on; nor shall aught of help that I or my folk may afford be wanting in your labour, and a reward rich and more than just awaits you at the end.’>
§297 (§28a) RD-EX-36b <TN But {they}[the Dwarves] knew nonetheless that they were prisoners, and trying the exits privily found them strongly warded. Being therefore without counsel they bowed before the king, and the faces of the Dwarf-folk show seldom what they think. Now after a time of rest{ was that last smithying begun in a deep place of Tinwelint's abode which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-40b <TN {Now when all was done and their smithcraft given to the king, then} said {Ufedhin}[the Dwarves]: ‘O {Tinwelint}[Thingol], richest of kings, {dost thou think these things fair?’ And he said: ‘Yea’; but Ufedhin said: ‘Know then that great store of thy best and purest gold remaineth still, for we have husbanded it having a boon to ask of thee, and it is this:} we would {make}remake thee {a}[that] carcanet and to its making lay all the skill and cunning that we have, and we desire that this should be the most marvellous ornament that the Earth has seen, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves. Therefore we beg of thee to let us have that Silmaril that thou treasurest, that it may shine wondrously amid the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír], the Necklace of the Dwarves.’
Then{ again} did {Tinwelint}[Thingol] doubt {Ufedhin's}[their] purpose, yet did he yield the {boon}[Silmaril], an they would suffer him to be present at that smithying.>
RD-EX-40.5c <TN {Now after a time of rest}Thus was that {last }smithying begun in a deep place of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]’s abode ' which he caused to be set apart for their uses, and what their hearts lacked therein fear supplied{, and in all that work Ufedhin had a mighty part}.> RD-EX-36.5b <QS77 Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked.>
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§303 (§29) RD-EX-46b <TN Then were the Dwarves paid their reward like common smiths of bronze and iron,> and bitter words grew between them[ and Thingol].<QS77 {;but}And the Dwarves in that moment {withheld it from him, and }demanded that he yield {it}[the Nauglamír] up to them, saying: ‘By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamír, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Húrin the Man of Dor-lómin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.’ But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying:> RD-EX-47 <TN ‘Nay then, ...
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...
...
§322 (§46d) <TN Now came all that host to the banks of {Aros}[Duin Daer], and their array was thus: first a number of unladen Dwarves most fully armed, and amidmost the great company of those that bore the treasury of RD-EX-74.5{Glorund}[Thingol], and many a fair thing beside that they had haled from {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls; and behind these was Naugladur{, and he bestrode Tinwelint's horse, and a strange figure did he seem, for the legs of the Dwarves are short and crooked, but two Dwarves led that horse for it went not willingly and it was laden with spoil}. But behind {these}him came again a mass of armed men but little laden; and in this array they sought to cross {Sarnathrod}[Athrod Daer] on their day of doom.>
...
...
...
§329 (§51a) <TN Then did he unloose the necklace, and he gazed in wonder at it - and beheld the Silmaril, even the jewel he won from Angband and gained undying glory by his deed; and he said: ‘Never have mine eyes beheld thee O Lamp of {Faery}[Fëanor] burn one half so fair as now thou dost, set in gold and gems and the magic of the Dwarves’; and that necklace he caused to be washed of its stains, and he cast it not away, knowing nought of its power, but bore it with him back into the woods of {Hithlum}[Ossiriand].> RD-SL-27 <QS77 And when all was finished the treasure of Doriath was drowned in the River Ascar, and from that time the river was named anew, {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], the Goldenbed.>
§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79b <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard{ of Glorund, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that {it}[Ascar] {guards}guarded [near by] nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.
...
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§334 (§51f) Yet Melian warned them ever of the curse that lay upon RD-EX-81.5{the treasure and }upon the Silmaril. The treasure they had drowned {indeed }in the river {Ascar, and named it anew} {Rathlóriel}[Rathmallen], Golden-Bed, yet the Silmaril they retained{.} <moved from above, and{ that} for a while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the {Gods}[Valar], and no places have been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.>

RD-EX-22b: I changed ‘gold’ to ‘necklace’ so that might be a bit over down here, since the necklace is of gold.
RD-EX-24b: The necklace is nothing to be gathered up.
RD-EX-29b: This must be changed for we have no longer any unwrought gold, so that the only tasked for the Dwarves is the re-fashioning of the necklace.
RD-EX-35b: Again there is no unwrought gold, so the plan of the dwarves only metioned implicit here would have been to feign that they would do the work in Nogrod and return with the finished product.
RD-EX-36b: In the beginning I put in a bit more of this passage in, since it seems clear that the dwarves are forced by Thingol to remain in Menegroth.
RD-EX-37 to RD-EX-39: This was the first smithing of the unwrought gold from the dragon hoard and the description of its results. It must go in the new story.
RD-EX-36b & RD-EX-40b: As these came together now we have to adapt the end and the begining accordingly.
RD-EX-40.5c: There is no longer a first smithying, so this one can nolonger becalled the last.
RD-EX-46b: In the version with the Nauglamir made for Thingol we had to change the passage from Sil77, but now that is no longer necessary.
RD-EX-74.5: What the Dwarves carry is no longer the hoard of Glaurung but the plunder of Menegroth.
RD-SL-27: I did not change this, since we already used the phrase from Sil77 unchanged.
RD-EX-79b: Again it is no longer the hoard of Glaurung, but here the change is simply to remove Glaurung since the reference is clear enough.
RD-EX-81.5: The treasure that is drowned in the River is no longer the accursed hoard of Glaurung so we have to change the reference here to the Nauglamír alone and in the next sentence the ‘indeed’ makes no longer any sense.

Again, please feel free to disagree with me. The first and foremost point for the discussion should be if my idea of combining the Nauglamír made for Finrod and carried all the way from Nargothrond to Menegroth by Húrin himself and the story of his companions periching by feuds on the way together with consequent loss of Glaurungs hoard seems plausible.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Hello Findegil. Now I come to this thread and after so long I am going to answer about what I think and what I always worry about. I think the solution is correct based on what you had explained in detail above. It is a wording similar to the one I developed after the discussion. But in the meantime the famous text "lost" for the public in an auction "Concernig .... The Hoard" enclosed by him in a 1964 letter to Eileen Elgar (together with Kinship of the Half-elven) came to mind. According to Cristina Scull the story closely follows Q30 with some differences: for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Conce...27The_Hoard%27

Have you thought about this?

Greetings

[Findegil]

Hi gondowe,

I did not know of Concerning ... 'The Hoard'. Therefore many thanks for point this text out to me. The small info we have about its content does change a lot.

At least it renders my last idea, about Hurin carrying the Nauglamir while his band perishes and so left the Horad of Nargothrond behind use less.

The 'two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian' might or moght not be related to the note in which Thingol himself goes beyond and is killed outside. Too sad we don't have that text in full. I have reread some of our editings and consider farther the implications of what we know about Concerning ... 'The Hoard'.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Yes. It's a pity the private text. Alas!!! Could its owner be less selfish? We only ask for a copy !!!!
In any case I think it is the most prudent thing to do as long as this text does not come to light to remain with the prudent option of having Húrin take only the Nauglamir to Thingol while his outlaws are killed in quarrels over the rest of the Hoard. And make 'no story tells how Thingol got out of the Girdle of Melian', in my humble opinion.

Greetings

[Findegil]

Posted by gondowe:

... outlaws are killed in quarrels over the rest of the Hoard.

This is in my view problematic. We have now a statement from Concerning ... 'The Hoard' that at least a considerable part of the unwrought metalls from Nargothrond reached Menegroth, since the Dwarves agreed that only a tenth from that should be their payment. So if, as Christina Scull told as, Concerning ... 'The Hoard' follows Q30, then we have their again the Húrin destroying his own gesture by fetching help from Thingol to carry the Hoard.

Concerning ... 'The Hoard' has block the way out of that dilema that I imagined. I could invent a clever solution in which Hurin only comes alone and with the Nauglamir after his man have died in quarrels. Seenig that the necklace could only come from the Hoard, adventures from Doriath could go in search for the Hoard, find it and carry it to Menegroth. But inventing is not the way we work here.
We could imaging, that Hurin when he first came tto the boarder, did not go to Thingol but recived help from the boarder-wardens. But that still is inventing a fact in Middle-Earth without a source from Tolkien.

Thereare in my view two question we have to answer:
A. I think we are left with the choice to let Hurin get help from Thingol and if that destroyes the gesture, so what? It was Tolkiens solution not ours. Or we can stay with the solution we found in the first instance: that the Outlaws came to Menegroth but left in peace with part of the Hoard.

B. In both cases we could still let Hurin chose a pre existing Nauglamir as a special part, that he carried hinself and used effectfully in Menegroth. And I think this is actually the second question we have to answer: When and for whom was the Nauglamir wrought?

For A I tend more and more to following Q30 since Concerning ... 'The Hoard' seems to support that version.

For B I think that Text X that we agreed exists does lead us to the Nauglamir beeing made originally for Felagund.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

What you're saying's correct. You cannot invent anything. And we must be frustated with this lack of an important text. But what I mean is that as long as we don't have the text of Concerning .... The Hoard we should focus on what we do have. And the last thing would be the very authoritative idea (even knowing that CT did not know the text of C .. TH when he composed Sil77) published by CT in Sil77 based on Note X. And C. Scull's observation that in general lines follow the Q30 can be in very general lines.
I would like to have the opinion of more people about it.
In any case I'll rethink again to preserve the Nauglamir made first for Finrod and the bringing of the full Hoard to Menegroth.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

But...ladies and gentlemen, we DO have "Concerning... 'The Hoard'"!

That is, as of last month from an auction - it was sold for c. 150,000$ from what I've heard. The auction website has actually posted images of the manuscripts, and a brave soul has already attempted to tackle the mess that is Tolkien's handwriting!

I will link both the auction website and the transcript here, and oh boy does it not disappoint!

The manuscript images: https://historical.ha.com/itm/books/...Popular-112917

The transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...ISmd8laFM/edit