Craziest Tolkien Theories

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Okay, yes. That certainly raises a material point- in Valinor, a race of immortals would have had no need for any concept of succession, save as a sort of hangover from the Great Journey and before. Which leads to the observation that Tolkien lost the plot a bit ca 1958 when revising QS: he has Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling over who was their father's heir- why? To what end? Inheritance would not have been a concept that any Elf of Valinor would have given the time of day to.

Things were different in Beleriand- especially since Feanor died almost immediately and the issue was front and center. But, yes, it probably was rather ad-hoc, other than a broad consensus that the House of Finwe was in charge. It's certainly fair to say that, viewed pragmatically, the title of High-King was meaningless after the Nirnaeth, sort of like "Holy Roman Emperor" after 1648. Turgon ruled Gondolin, Orodreth ruled Nargothrond, Thingol ruled Doriath, Cirdan was in charge at Sirion's mouths and Balar, the Feanorians were wandering exiles, the Green-elves did their own thing, and there was no central authority at all in a land where Morgoth was in effective control outside those few enclaves.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

hS- there is however the sentence "Bright Earendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths:" which as a practical matter meant all the surviving west-Elves of Middle-earth other than the rebel Feanorians.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

hS- there is however the sentence "Bright Earendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths:" which as a practical matter meant all the surviving west-Elves of Middle-earth other than the rebel Feanorians.

Eärendil did not claim high-Kingship for much the same reason Elrond remained "Master" of the Last Homely House. They are Peredhil and it seems fairly obvious from Tolkien's frame of mind that the line from Eärendil to Elros was more important to the Numenoreans than for the Elvish line under Elrond. Hence, the full-blooded Elven Gil-Galad is high-king of the Noldor, and that claim dies with him, even though Elrond certainly had the bona fides to claim it, but didn't.

If we weren't following whatever pseudo-Salic male primogeniture, Galadriel as the child of Finarfin probably was a better claimant to the throne than Elrond's watered-down birthright. And the power to take it, if she so chose.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Okay, yes. That certainly raises a material point- in Valinor, a race of immortals would have had no need for any concept of succession, save as a sort of hangover from the Great Journey and before. Which leads to the observation that Tolkien lost the plot a bit ca 1958 when revising QS: he has Feanor and Fingolfin squabbling over who was their father's heir- why? To what end? Inheritance would not have been a concept that any Elf of Valinor would have given the time of day to.

I think it was more a matter of honour, of position, than a matter of material inheritance upon the death of the parent. Who is closest to the King? Whose word is second just after his? Feanor and Fingolfin did not desire to inherit Finwe's material wealth or the status of King, but they were squabbling over who should be the second after Finwe. In other words, who is the favourite sibling, cause dada loves me best.

Besides, they were still familiar with the concept of death and succession based on other factors. The Elves had an extensive history in Middle-earth before coming to Aman, and we are given to assume that they were sometimes attacked by wild things and Morgoth's servants, and some of them disappeared mysteriously - but presumably at least some were just killed. Some of them disagreed with each other, or split up for other purposes, and chose/followed new leaders. So I don't think it's an outlandish concept for them to have, even though death in Aman was non-existent until Finwe - or, technically, Miriel.



With regard to Gil-Galad's inheritance, does anyone know how old he was when Earendil became the ruler of the remaining Elven folk? I assumed that Finwe's brother Turgon became King over Gil-Galad because the lad was too young to rule at the time, by whatever standards Elves had.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

hS- there is however the sentence "Bright Earendil was then lord of the people that dwelt nigh to Sirion's mouths:" which as a practical matter meant all the surviving west-Elves of Middle-earth other than the rebel Feanorians.

What's the breakdown between the Havens of Sirion and the Isle of Balar? My admittedly vague understanding is that Sirion was founded by the refugees of Gondolin and Doriath, while everyone else - the remnants of the Falas, Nargothrond, and Hithlum - were holed up on Balar. If that's right, then... well, I have no idea how the numbers break down. Are there any known refugees of Nargothrond and Hithlum?

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

With regard to Gil-Galad's inheritance, does anyone know how old he was when Earendil became the ruler of the remaining Elven folk? I assumed that Finwe's brother Turgon became King over Gil-Galad because the lad was too young to rule at the time, by whatever standards Elves had.

I have in my head that the Silm states he was born in 445, so ten years before the Bragollach. That would make him about 30 come the Nirnaeth, and just over 60 at the Fall of Gondolin. If we accept the LaCE claim that elves reach adulthood at 50, you're spot on with this.

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

What's the breakdown between the Havens of Sirion and the Isle of Balar? My admittedly vague understanding is that Sirion was founded by the refugees of Gondolin and Doriath, while everyone else - the remnants of the Falas, Nargothrond, and Hithlum - were holed up on Balar. If that's right, then... well, I have no idea how the numbers break down. Are there any known refugees of Nargothrond and Hithlum?

One certainly gets the impression from the Turinssaga that the Men of Hithlum all died in the Nirnaeth, and their women, children and elderly all became thralls of the Easterlings, save some few escapees who became outlaws (like Forweg and Androg). Similarly, it seems that the entire population of Nargothrond was either slaughtered or dragged off to slavery. So I would say "pretty close to zero."

You're right I think about Balar- Cirdan and the Falathrim had buggered off to there, only maintaining "hidden outposts" in the mainland fens, from which the doomed expeditions to Valinor were launched, as Voronwe told Tuor.

[Alassë Estel]

Perhaps this has been noted before somewhere else, but I find it most interesting that Tolkien's "Roverandom" seems to occurs in the same universe (realm?) as The Lord of the Rings and all other tales from Middle Earth.

Here is the passage which seems to confirm this:

Another time he [Uin the whale] took them to the other side (or as near as he dared), and that was a still longer and more exciting journey, the most marvelous of all Roverandom's travels, as he realised later, when he was grown to be an older and a wiser dog. It would take the whole of another story, at least, to tell you of all their adventures in the Uncharted Waters and of their glimpses of lands unknown to geography, before they passed the Shadowy Seas and reached the great Bay of Fairyland (as we call it) beyond the Magic Isles, and saw far off in the last West the Mountains of Elvenhome and the light of Faery upon the waves. Roverandom thought he caught a glimpse of the city of the Elves on the green hill beneath the Mountains, a glint of white far away; but Uin dived again so suddenly that he could not be sure. If he was right, he is one of the vey few creatures, on two legs or four, who can walk about our own lands and say they have glimpsed that other land, however far away.
'I should catch it, if this was found out!' said Uin. 'No one from the Outer Lands is supposed ever to come here, and few ever do now. Mum's the word!'



Come to think of it, that's not particulary "crazy", but I did want to relate it anyway.