Tol-in-Gaurhoth CXIV – The Evil Breath of Morgoth in Dor-lómin, game thread

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Rikae

When it comes to single top suspects vs lists, both have their pros and cons and leave material to analyze later on. Me, I like lists. Here's one, just to get the ball rolling:

Pitchwife
G55
Macalaure

Originally Posted by Legate

But you didn't indicate what is that a list of. Of what? Top suspects?

I read this as Rikae saying one suspect vs suspect list and then going for the list option. So I'm assuming this was a list of current suspects.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Because while I see how fake voting can help, clever baddies will find a way to exploit it.
A backpedaling innocent is going to do everything they can to stay alive for the good of the village and they're probably going to look guilty in their attempts. It just takes a few well-placed, persuasive posts to get a baffled innocent lynched.

Agreed. An innocent trying to change their mind, especially if prone to getting cross when defensive, is likely to end up as cannon fodder.

In a move so reminiscent of Lommy I almost had to check to make sure it wasn't her, Mr 'I don't do lists' Boro then immediately comes out with hundreds. Ok, two, but still.

Originally Posted by Lommy

That's certainly a fair point. I mean whenever I'm a wolf I'm certainly trying to roleplay innocent me to a degree, and if you have established trademark quirks, it helps to follow those. So anyone sounding like a parody of their usual self is worth looking at.

I think it will be really interesting to see how those who are relative newbies to these games see the old-timers. Will they pick up on supposed traits/quirks or have we actually changed as players over time without realising? An end of game discussion on that will be fascinating!

Originally Posted by Pitch

Mac, really? You find it odd how I pinned the no-vote stuff on Legate, when earlier you yourself found it just as odd how enthusiastic he was about it? Now that I find odd! *ping*

A Pitch vs Mac fight seems to be brewing ...

Lhuna!! We are Nilp-less and STILL we have been Nilp'ed!

By the way, I'm assuming all votes are final? I'm sure I've played in games where they can be taken back but am assuming not this one?

[Boromir88]

Ok, they're not lists. See them as tabs...groups of tabs. Any attempt of mental lists scrambled me up so to try organizing I did groups, not lists.

If the DL was now I would vote for...

++In *No stop it.* ++Legate

Excluding anything I said myself so far, I concur with this point the most:

Why did I pressure Legate rather than G55 re the fake votes? The difference between

1) G55 throwing out an idea to stir up a discussion, and

2) Legate picking it up and going "Oh yes that's a good idea let's totally do that!", when I thought it was a) not helpful and b) needlessly overcomplicating things. But my last note on him, on his reply to G55 in #44, was 'actually sensible?'~Pitch

There is a difference between the two.

I find it very odd how very enthusiastic Legate is about this. My immediate thought was the one that Gala had, too: very cobblerish. A wolf wouldn't stick their head out that far, and one would expect an innocent person to be a bit more measured in their response, weighing pros and cons. Not saying a wolf can't fake a careful approach, of course.~Mac

What you must ask though is not "would a wolf stick their head out that early?" but would a Legate-wolf do it? With a pack of 5 there's higher incentive to start out bolder. Because it means you have 4 companions who can throw their weight around and steer it in favor or opposed to Legate depending on how the winds go. Where the rest of us rely only on ourselves.

Edit: Added "Mac" to the 2nd quote, to clarify that it was from him.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ok, they're not lists. See them as tabs...groups of tabs. Any attempt of mental lists scrambled me up so to try organizing I did groups, not lists.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... you know

Originally Posted by Boro

What you must ask though is not "would a wolf stick their head out that early?" but would a Legate-wolf do it? With a pack of 5 there's higher incentive to start out bolder. Because it means you have 4 companions who can throw their weight around and steer it in favor or opposed to Legate depending on how the winds go. Where the rest of us rely only on ourselves.

I highly doubt the pack would come out in force and steer the wheel only to keep one packmember from fenrisizing themselves. Chances are that one of them will bite the dust at some point, and then people will look at their old posts. Such Day1 behavior can sink the wolfship on a later day.

The difference between number of innocents and number of wolves determines how many days we will play. Number of days vs. number of wolves to be lynched. The ratio is more important than the actual pack size.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I've been going back and forth on who I think looks most wolf-like of those three, too.

This is what I mean. I can feel a race between Pitch, G55, and Legate coming up, while the wolves are snickering in the background.

I'm not even saying that there isn't a wolf among them - it's possible - but I don't like the way this is gaining momentum.

Originally Posted by Huin

I'd like to hear from some of the people who think Macalaure is dodgy

Translation: "I'm trying to frame an innocent but I don't want to get my own hands dirty, can someone help me out?"

Originally Posted by Rikae

He does love playing as a wolf, but I think he also enjoys looking sinister as an innocent.

Actually, I usually get super nervous as a wolf and then it shows and then I die. The second part is true though.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I don’t have too much to go on, just single posts or comments that strike me as suspicious. If I had to vote now I would probably go for Eonwe or Kitanna.

Eonwes back and forth dialog regarding Legate in post 73 strikes me as a noncommittal day 1 ploy.

Kitanna jumping at Lhunas very first post also seem to opportunistic. Definitely seems overly keen to build a case, even if there is absolutely nothing to go on.

Most people seems somewhat helpful, and unfortunately that makes me see them in a bit of rose tinted light.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Mac

Translation: "I'm trying to frame an innocent but I don't want to get my own hands dirty, can someone help me out?"

This actually isn’t how I read that at all. If anything, Huinesoron seems almost worried about Mac and defends him on more than one occasion. Still within the limits of ordo who doesn’t get why someone is being suspected, but worth keeping an eye on.

I also found Huin’s back and forth with Lommy quite curious, from both of them I should say. Huin brings up Lommy’s flip-flopping, she counters with explaining how she always does this and it’s just her thought process (this is true), he makes a shrewd point on how hiding behind one’s “trademark” habits is a safe place for a wolf to go, then she basically says this is fair as it’s what she does when she’s a wolf. Huin then says Lommy seems to have eased off a bit, and later speculates if it’s a coincidence that she seemed to appear just to defend herself and then disappear again when he seemed satisfied with her explanation. I’m not sure what to make of any of this, but I think it merits more attention than it got.

Originally Posted by Legate

The main benefit of this would be that we could then see who would be "lynched" under such circumstances - and then that could be helpful in tracing the Wolves. Because in "real" voting, WWs are calculating to save their mates and so on. In "dry run", it isn't so clear, and then they may be a bit at loss as to what to do. Would they cast their "pseudo-vote" to "save" their packmate even if it is only a dry run? But what if then the real vote happens and the situation goes the same way and they have to change their vote? They need to provide an explanation. It may draw eyes. Etc etc. THAT was the chief merit behind the theory that was discussed so lengthily here.

I’m still not big on the idea, but this is the most sensible defence of it that I’ve seen so far and makes me feel better about Legate – this sort of reasoning doesn’t strike me as something that would necessarily occur to a wolf.

I want to read back a few pages and see what’s actually going on. There’s been a lot of talk and focus on Pitch, Gal55, and Legate, and that’s fair enough as that whole dynamic is possibly the most substantial thing to have happened so far, but I’m as interested (if not more) in other people’s reactions to those three as in the trio themselves.

[Eönwë]

Ok, things are looking pretty busy for me today. Let's do a list to gather my thoughts.

Thinlómien - Seems good so far.

Legate of Amon Lanc - I don't like the voting plan, but since then he's seemed pretty reasonable. Of course, he's just as good at seeming (and actually being) reasonable when he's an innocent or wolf. I'm not sure whether I might've missed it, but I can't see whether he's decided to back down from the idea, held to it, or decided to remain silent.

Huinesoron - Never played with before, seems reasonable so far.

Loslote - Can't get a read yet.

Pitchwife - Was originally very suspicious of how he jumped on Legate. Now, looking back, I can see why he might have wanted to argue against both G55 and Legate's suggestions. However, in the now-infamous post, he only really reiterates and slightly expands upon what Lommy, Brinn, and Zil were saying, which might make his post the pseudo-useful post he was accusing Legate of. More recently (#100), he's attacked Mac for seemingly being hyporcitical/jumping at any excuse to attack. Unfairly attacked and therefore suspicious innocent or frantic wolf? Not sure.

Kath - seems quiet but ok so far.

Galadriel55 - I don't actually think she's very suspicious overall. However, how others have acted towards her makes it look like maybe people were trying to get her out of suspicion's way (by pinning the fake-voting on Legate, etc.), so that does make her suspicious and may implicate her in future if they're evil.

Lhunardawen - Really not enough to go on yet.

Inziladun - I'm also firmly in the 'usually has a strong urge to lynch Zil on Day 1' group. I'm not feeling it as much as usual this time, which has me concerned. But I don't think I'd vote for him toDay.

Kitanna - Not enough to get a good read yet.

A Little Green - Not enough to get a good read yet.

Boromir88 - Too much talking about things that don't seem that helpful for me to feel comfortable. But then this is normal Boro, at least as I remember his play-style.

Urwen - Nothing substantive yet.

Lalaith- Not enough to get a good read yet.

Brinniel - I really can't tell how I feel about her at this point, which is concerning.

Macalaure- Not sure whether I'm actually suspicious of him or just have heard that he's suspicious so many times that I've started to believe it.

Rikae- Not sure why she let Lommy off the hook in her initial suspicion list.

Rune Son of Bjarne - Interesting to hear him admit that he usually suspects me without much cause; that might partially explain why I usually suspect him, and this game is no different. Probably not enough to vote for him though. At least do far.

THE Ka - Seems good so far.

Satansaloser2005- Not enough to get a good read yet.

Shastanis Althreduin- Not enough to get a good read yet.


One interesting (maybe 'out-there') idea: What if G55 and Legate are both wolves? In this scenario, G55 made a throwaway comment and Legate saw the violent backlash and rushed in to make it seem more palatable, only to have the idea pinned to him instead.


Note: I can see that page 4 is filling up rapidly, but haven't read it yet.


edit: fixed formatting, finished one sentence.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

This is what I mean. I can feel a race between Pitch, G55, and Legate coming up, while the wolves are snickering in the background.

I'm not even saying that there isn't a wolf among them - it's possible - but I don't like the way this is gaining momentum.

I agree with this. I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap. I think I will stay clear of this potential mess for toDay and focus elsewhere.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap.

Interesting.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Actually, I usually get super nervous as a wolf and then it shows and then I die. The second part is true though.

Translation: "See how not nervous and sinister I look? Clearly I am an innocent!"

Originally Posted by Rikae

Are you serious or are you joking, then? So far you've started a lot of serious debate and accusations flowing with jokes.

If you're seriously suggesting my summary was meant to derail the village, well the bit about you was meant to see whether you responded with jumpy self-defense and/or whether anyone followed by suspecting you in an opportunistic way, both of which would give me/the village more to go on.

It was said in a joking tone, but I was dead serious about you being inaccurate and exaggerating. The most inaccurate thing about Mac you've addressed as an "oops, don't know how that got there" which sounds innocent but is still EXTREMELY unhelpful, since it sticks incorrectly in people's memories. When did Zil cast accusation on Legate as being a wolf? Find me that post, please, because I don't see one. What you said about Lommy - seriously?

I get that it's been part joke, but it's also so dangerous to half-seriously summarize things with such blatant exaggeration and inaccuracy, because again this is how it sticks in people's minds. Moreover, it's how people (especially yourself) can easily justify votes and suspicion later on - based on incorrect summaries. I can argue about the statements involving me as well, except that would be biased and there is sufficient to be said without it; the exception is the first statement, cause I can't recall where I "concluded" we need to lynch a wolf (I recall Lommy's post that you refer to but not mine).

So yes. A subtle diversion / tweaking of how people remember the events is not at all beyond your posts' potential achievements. Throw some unsupported shade on people, then dismiss half of it as a joke and half of it as an oopsy daisy, and the post gets forgiven but the shade remains. Actually, it was so bombastically inaccurate I am surprised only Mac called you out on it except for me.

(for ease of discussion for everyone else, we are both talking about #69.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I agree with this. I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap. I think I will stay clear of this potential mess for toDay and focus elsewhere.

Do you have better candidates? It's admirable to make sure you scrutinize everyone, not just the most vocal people. But not voting for someone you genuinely suspect because you think it might be a trap or get messy? This seems to be dancing too easily on the edge of voting whomever works out best for yourself. Brin, can I please request a summary of who you actually suspect?

A Brin-read to come later if I have time. It's gotta be done. You were under my radar for way too long toDay, and I can't see what your game is because I barely remember what your previous opinions were, except that they didn't stick out too far to be controversial.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Boro - he's really weird in this game. Yeah yeah, maybe he's just happy to play again. Or maybe his playing style changed over the years when we were not playing.

I have been just thinking the same thing! And exactly wondering whether it was him or my memory of him.

Originally Posted by Loslote

I absolutely do not suspect anyone on the basis of whether or not they supported the bonus vote round plan. I do think there is merit to Huin's point that Pitch soft defended G55, then when that was pointed out, soft attacked G55. That, coupled with the fact that I do suspect G55 based on other posts, leads me to think that they legitimately might be a wolf pair.

Fair enough.

Anyways... I may do a bit of a re-check and perhaps post an actual list of my impressions on everyone - or at least work on one to have it before DL. Since the "fake DL" would be soon, I could reiterate what I said and say that right now, I'd vote for

++Kitanna

But I want to do a full re-check before the actual DL, hope I will have time for it.

EDIT: xe-d since the Lottie post I quoted

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Could you elaborate on what you're referring to here? So far, I've felt like Rikae has been straightforward and clear, and I haven't gotten a bad vibe from her at all. Also, this:

#69.

Seriously? No one else except Mac has noticed anything wrong with that post? And Mac only noticed it because he was the one falsely accused. Notice how no one else picked up on the incorrect information. Don't you find it scary manipulative to have thoughts put into your head like that? Village, what is wrong with you for blindly eating up what you're fed, regardless of Rikae's actual role or intention?

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Maeglin is a traitor, so why would one bring him into the fray. To me that is a cobbler hint, I didn’t bring it up earlier because I wanted us to focus on the sick.

Because Maeglin is Urwen's latest character obsession. She will find a way to bring him into any discussion. See like all of her posts in the last year.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Me neither - and not only because I am one of them, but considering this.
Day 1 starts. As expected of Day 1, there isn't much to talk about, people are joking about washing hands etc.
Then, among a few actual posts with content, G55 proposes (the way I see it now) an alternative to "no vote on Day 1" in the form of a "fake vote".
I understand it as a "dry run vote" and propose an elaborate scheme which makes half the people not understand what I meant.
Pitchwife questions it.

Cut to: "one of these three is a Wolf". For what? For suggesting a "bonus vote round"? For baiting me into talking about "bonus vote round" so that they could accuse me of coming up with it? Is talking about this "bonus vote round" something inherently evil, so WWs would assume that they could paint the person who talked about it as suspicious? This has nothing to do with whether the people involved may be innocent or guilty otherwise, but this debate should have zero impact on it?!?

What I mean is to ask: where is there anything "evil" in this debate in the first place? The whole idea seems horribly contrived. It is more like "look, three people started arguing here, let's pick a lynchee from among them". Only normally, when people argue, they argue about whether XY is suspicious or not, or perhaps whether we should lynch nobody on Day 1. Now in those debates, you could at least argue that one side is arguing for something with a malicious intent. But we argued (or anyway, "argued", on top of everything) about something that, I think, is "outside morality and ethics".

I ask everyone who suspects anyone on the grounds of this to reexamine (and ideally, explain) their reasoning.

That is actually very reasonable and unpanicked defense. However, it misses the main point of all the accusations, which are not about the content of the Votes Debate but the manner in which players have interacted in it. Still, points to Legate for level-headedness regardless of his role.

Edit: xed since my last

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by G55

Do you have better candidates? It's admirable to make sure you scrutinize everyone, not just the most vocal people. But not voting for someone you genuinely suspect because you think it might be a trap or get messy? This seems to be dancing too easily on the edge of voting whomever works out best for yourself. Brin, can I please request a summary of who you actually suspect?

Between the three of you that have been brought up, I found Pitchwife's posts to be most suspicious. However, I'm second-guessing myself because I'm starting to think he may just be easy cannon fodder for the wolves. I don't find Legate suspicious and reading your posts today, I'm less wary of you.

I honestly do not have time for full summary posts because I do actually have to work as I mentioned before. If I were to pick someone right now, I would say Inzil. I can't quite put my fingers on it, but I'd say it's mostly because he's one of the most frequent posters, yet I find him providing less of substance and just going with the flow. Easy way for a wolf to hide.

If I do have time I may take a look at those building a case against Pitchwife.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

It was said in a joking tone, but I was dead serious about you being inaccurate and exaggerating. The most inaccurate thing about Mac you've addressed as an "oops, don't know how that got there" which sounds innocent but is still EXTREMELY unhelpful, since it sticks incorrectly in people's memories. When did Zil cast accusation on Legate as being a wolf? Find me that post, please, because I don't see one. What you said about Lommy - seriously?

I get that it's been part joke, but it's also so dangerous to half-seriously summarize things with such blatant exaggeration and inaccuracy, because again this is how it sticks in people's minds. Moreover, it's how people (especially yourself) can easily justify votes and suspicion later on - based on incorrect summaries. I can argue about the statements involving me as well, except that would be biased and there is sufficient to be said without it; the exception is the first statement, cause I can't recall where I "concluded" we need to lynch a wolf (I recall Lommy's post that you refer to but not mine).

So yes. A subtle diversion / tweaking of how people remember the events is not at all beyond your posts' potential achievements. Throw some unsupported shade on people, then dismiss half of it as a joke and half of it as an oopsy daisy, and the post gets forgiven but the shade remains. Actually, it was so bombastically inaccurate I am surprised only Mac called you out on it except for me.

It was indeed an exaggeration and over-generalization to see how people reacted, and you are certainly reacting.

Inzil agreed with Mac. At least that's how I read "Hmm. Perhaps."

If people are basing their votes on my comments a couple hours into day one, none of which I'm even using to support any suspicions, I don't know what they're doing. The only suspicion I even hinted at with any of that was of you, for subtly encouraging a plan/topic of conversation and then suspecting the person who pushed it forward.

That, in itself, isn't necessarily suspicious, but was enough to make me want to take a closer look. Which I did, and continue to do.

And now I'm really done with this topic.

[Boromir88]

I also disagree with Gal about lists being vague and useless. I personally find them quite helpful; without them it’s easy to stick to talking about the loudest, most controversial villagers and topics and let others fly under the radar completely. This tends to serve wolves better than innocents since odds are at least some of them are among the quiet, less attention-seeking crowd.~Greenie

So to stay away from any more lists. Let me try a theoretical "how Day 1s go (in my mind)" approach.

In general, is it agreed that the "under the radar" group is larger than the "loud/active" group? Is it also agreed that Day 1 voting feels like such a shot in the dark?

In the larger group of "under the radars" there are most assuredly wolves. Larger group, easier to stay on the outskirts. A Day 1 vote for a player in this group is low risk, but low reward. Because a lot of the "under the radar" Day 1 behavior is also a sign of ordo villagers who don't have much to say, due to a lack of Day 1 information. And they are forced to wait for information to go on.

Then there's a smaller group of "loud/active" players, and the "under the radars" need this group to stir conversation/discussion. A day 1 "shot in the dark" vote for someone in the smaller group is higher risk, but also higher reward. It's a smaller group so better percentage the shot hits a wolf. Higher risk though because that shot could also inadvertently hit a gifted.

Sometimes I'm in favor of the higher risk, sometimes not. In general I try to follow a "let the active players duke it out and lynch each other" and leave the under the radars to the gifteds, to whittle down and figure out. Because as the days go on, even the "under the radars" have to step out and leave a record.

On a separate note. In a matter of personal taste, the cobbler is my favorite role to play. I guess there's that bit of cause mischief in me that I really enjoy. I don't think anyone proposed lynching a suspected-cobbler over a suspected-wolf, but agree with the sentiment that it's helpful to point out cobblerish behavior. At the end of the day the cobbler doesn't know any of the wolves, so in their own nefarious scheming they could in fact be more harmful to outing wolves than actually helping them. In one way or another the cobbler is the most beneficial when sacrificing for the pack (counts as an innocent lynched). So, it's really not beneficial to lynch a suspected-cobbler.

I read the Lommy's and other posts of "well that's a cobblerish suggestion" as not to say "let's lynch the Legate-looking cobbler" but "Let's take this suggest plan with a grain of salt/diversionary tactic."

Edit: Much cross-posting

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kitanna

In the whole Legate, G55, and Pitch discussion I'd wager there's a wolf hidden, setting up two innocents to take the bait. Yet each time I read back, I switch who I think is most likely the wolf.
I thought Legate might be the innocent party until post #88
Something about the whole post feels, I don't know, contrived? I can't place my finger on it. Like G55 it feels like he's distancing himself from the fake DL, fake vote discussion.
I'm finding it hard to explain why this sets me off, but I'm going to try in the most coherent way.
Legate drew a lot of attention, but I didn't really feel many were overly suspicious of him. There's been some talk, but nothing to indicate everyone is convinced and ready to bandwagon. I'd say more people raised eyebrows toward G55 and Pitch, myself included, because of how G55 distanced herself from her idea and how Pitch threw it all into Legate's lap. In all that, Legate did look like a misguided, attempting to be helpful innocent. But maybe that's how he wants to be viewed? He's been helpful, at least, in stirring up conversation. And yet, his list post of his thoughts in #88 just rings of false platitudes and him trying to put himself under the radar again. He came, he made a lot of noise, and now just there with a list.

Okay, this was pretty out of the blue. So in short, now Kitanna started to suspect me for making a list?

Plus again posting with what I call "helpful questions for the reader" - I don't like that, because that is exactly the typical Wolf-tactic for baiting the reader into it. As in:
Wolf: "XY did something. I wonder if they are guilty?" Reader: "Hmm, maybe there's something to it. I vote for XY." Wolf: "Oh! I see! There is something fishy about XY! Good that it was not me who came up with that."

Otherwise... I have good feelings about Rune, especially his post #117 seems genuinely innocentish to me.

Originally Posted by Kath

I am assuming here that you mean Kath not Kant - but I'm still gonna take it and bask in the glory of being referred to as an eminent philosopher.

Sorry, I meant Kant I was not aware of you saying anything about it by the time I posted it. But, to be sure, feel free to claim a new nickname! Henceforth, you shall be known as...

Originally Posted by Rikae

I was wondering if I should worry about the way Boro was buttering Mac up ...

Right?

Originally Posted by Macalaure

This is what I mean. I can feel a race between Pitch, G55, and Legate coming up, while the wolves are snickering in the background.

I'm not even saying that there isn't a wolf among them - it's possible - but I don't like the way this is gaining momentum.

Me neither - and not only because I am one of them, but considering this.
Day 1 starts. As expected of Day 1, there isn't much to talk about, people are joking about washing hands etc.
Then, among a few actual posts with content, G55 proposes (the way I see it now) an alternative to "no vote on Day 1" in the form of a "fake vote".
I understand it as a "dry run vote" and propose an elaborate scheme which makes half the people not understand what I meant.
Pitchwife questions it.

Cut to: "one of these three is a Wolf". For what? For suggesting a "bonus vote round"? For baiting me into talking about "bonus vote round" so that they could accuse me of coming up with it? Is talking about this "bonus vote round" something inherently evil, so WWs would assume that they could paint the person who talked about it as suspicious? This has nothing to do with whether the people involved may be innocent or guilty otherwise, but this debate should have zero impact on it?!?

What I mean is to ask: where is there anything "evil" in this debate in the first place? The whole idea seems horribly contrived. It is more like "look, three people started arguing here, let's pick a lynchee from among them". Only normally, when people argue, they argue about whether XY is suspicious or not, or perhaps whether we should lynch nobody on Day 1. Now in those debates, you could at least argue that one side is arguing for something with a malicious intent. But we argued (or anyway, "argued", on top of everything) about something that, I think, is "outside morality and ethics".

I ask everyone who suspects anyone on the grounds of this to reexamine (and ideally, explain) their reasoning.

EDIT: xed with million again

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by THE Ka

Granted I need to read over Kit's posts more, but... These are some strong pot calling the kettle black vibes.

Just to clarify, am I the pot or is G55?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Cut to: "one of these three is a Wolf". For what? For suggesting a "bonus vote round"? For baiting me into talking about "bonus vote round" so that they could accuse me of coming up with it? Is talking about this "bonus vote round" something inherently evil, so WWs would assume that they could paint the person who talked about it as suspicious? This has nothing to do with whether the people involved may be innocent or guilty otherwise, but this debate should have zero impact on it?!?

I absolutely do not suspect anyone on the basis of whether or not they supported the bonus vote round plan. I do think there is merit to Huin's point that Pitch soft defended G55, then when that was pointed out, soft attacked G55. That, coupled with the fact that I do suspect G55 based on other posts, leads me to think that they legitimately might be a wolf pair.

[Thinlómien]

I went away for a few hours to do something else and - oh whatever, it's actually nice to see the village is active! I'm not gonna address individual posts right now but instead I'm gonna make a list:


Leaning innocent

Legate - his stirring the pot seems more innocent to me than not, especially in the light of his most recent post (#125), which has a very genuine vibe to me. In my experience, legatewolf is more cautious than ordoofamonlanc, which makes me not super worried about his behaviour toDay.

Kath and THE Ka - seem like their normal reasonable selves and give me a good vibe so far.

Lhuna - would a wolf self-vote on Day1? The eternal question... In reality, it's probably much safer than starting a bandwagon against anyone else if you're the one who has to vote first for timezone reasons, but I think a wolf might be nervous enough to think otherwise? The tone of her vote post pretty much screams ordo (or possibly cobbler) to me, so I don't think I'm gonna jump on the bandwagon she's trying to create. (Although it's tempting just because it's funny and it would be karma. )


Who knows (I mean who knows about anyone, but these are the extra who knows people!)

Galadriel55 - several things she's said have made me raise my eyebrows a little - especially how she treated the whole no-vote discussion from the start, but I think she might rather be an ordo sticking her neck out à la Legate or else the cobbler, and in either case probably not who I want to concentrate any more toDay than we already have.

Mac and Rikae - both of them seem like their usual innocent selves, but something's going on in there. I wouldn't be very surprised if one of them turned out to be a wolf, but the question is which one? Originally Rikae seemed very innocent to me and Mac like a shadowy troublemaker, but towards the end of the Day the roles have somewhat switched around...

Greenie and Inzil - both seem kinda creepily nicely cool and collected and reasonable and I don't really suspect them but I know better than to trust them without more material. They're always like this regardless of the role.

Lalaith and Urwen - ok I might have grouped them together for funsies, but it's true neither of them has given me enough material to work on, so nothing to say yet.

Brinniel and Eönwë - here's the thing. They both seem(ed) to consider me (someone I know is innocent) and THE Ka (someone who seems innocent to me) innocent and besides I more or less agree with most of what they've both said, so that seems a little too good to be true to me. Then again, with the same logic I might as well suspect myself. And if this wasn't confusing enough, then Eönwë already pointing out Brinniel thinks uncannily similarly to him (about me & Ka) brought this to a whole new level for me. Anyway, if I had to make a judgement - Eönwë's overall tone seemed pretty genuine, while Brinniel seems more sinister.

Sally and Shasta - they seem to have posted but somehow they both completely flew under my radar??


Shady

Huinesoron - I'm wondering how much benefit of doubt I should give them because they haven't played 'downs ww *so* much (and I think we played together once maybe?) but something about their reasoning feels very alien to me. I know I'm innocent and I personally think I also act quite innocent so their suspicion of me seems very fabricated to me.

Lottie, Kitanna and Rune - all of them rub me the wrong way but I would need to reread their posts to put a finger on it.

Pitchwife - seems somewhat too defensive and grasping at straws. Then again, I find it funny how he stands out to so many people as one of the main players of toDay (alongside Legate and Galadriel55) when I personally feel like he's been flying under the radar? Meaning, I somewhat smell an "easy target" the wolves would be happy about...

Boro - he's really weird in this game. Yeah yeah, maybe he's just happy to play again. Or maybe his playing style changed over the years when we were not playing. But I'm mostly worried about the fact that he's not half as confrontational as usual, but instead posting long introspective rambles where he conveniently doesn't have to go toe-to-toe with anyone.


edit: xed with #136 and onwards

[Kath]

Originally Posted by Boro

The one thing I was most certain of agreeing with today was Pitch's comment that there was a difference in that LGP group between Legate's "enthusiasm" in jumping on G55's question to stir conversation. If I'm reading correctly now. Did Pitch sort of back away from suspecting G55, to defending G55, and back track again? I'm going back through those interactions, because if true, that does ping more to my fight senses than anything else today.

A difference between Legate's enthusiasm and what? Not quite sure what you're trying to say there.


Votes as I go:
Lhuna --> Lhuna - I mean, what is there to say really? It's a thing. I'm ok with being a thing toDay, but not anything past that.

Rikae --> Brinn - seems to be largely down to the wanting to avoid a trap comment. Other people have mentioned wanting to steer clear of the Legate-Pitch-G55 triangle, but even that seems to have died down as the Day has gone on and more people have appeared. Perhaps it's the 'avoid a trap' wording rather than the sentiment itself?

G55 --> Rikae - quite a big fight seems to have blown up between these two. I looked at post 69 and couldn't really see anything in it. Yes, Rikae somewhat exaggerated events but it was early in the Day and to me read as typical banter. I don't think there was this element of deliberate misrepresentation that G55 feels is going on. I don't know if G55 has played with Rikae before and it's an unfamiliarity with playing style thing, or a great way for a wolf-G55 to have a pretty logical reason to vote an innocent-Rikae.

Originally Posted by G55

It's not a WW game without me and Rikae getting into a flame war, isn't it?

Ah, well that puts paid to that idea!

Seriously, can someone tell me how I quote within quote. Otherwise you're going to keep getting things like this:

Originally Posted by Hui

#95: Kitanna discusses a Galadriwolf or PitchWolf, but interestingly doesn't suggest a pack. She does seem to suggest G55 and Rikae as a pack with this:

Originally Posted by Kitanna

*side eyes both [G55 & Rikae]* Orchestrated wolf action? I suppose not likely, but the more I read of G55 the more I raise my eyebrows.

I think the quote from Kitanna actually says she doesn't think G55 and Rikae are working together, not suggesting they are a pack at all.

Originally Posted by Greenie

The only thing I was wary of was her argument that there is likely to be a wolf in the Pitch-Gal-Legate -trio - as others have pointed out, there's no basis for this really but it would be a very convenient idea for a wolf to advocate.

This is also about Kitanna. Greenie was talking about her lacking consistency, but actually she's been pretty consistent about suspecting G55 across both the major arguments of the Day.

G55 ... earlier in the Day it was felt by some that she'd backed away from the 'fake-votes' in favour of leaving that to Legate, and was garnering a bit of suspicion or at least wary eyes as a result. She then leaps headfirst into a ding dong with Rikae and a few have now mentioned this makes her look innocent. I don't know that I'm going anywhere with this as it feels like it would be way too hard to make that a calculated thing.

Oh and Boro --> Pitch - supposed deliberate flip flopping between Legate and G55.

Urwen --> G55 - 'because I am Morleg and I am spiteful'. That's either a horrible reason for a vote or some reference I'm not understanding. Had Urwen shown any suspicion toward G55 before this? I don't really even recall Urwen posting until now.

Pitch --> Brinn - for using the same suspects as Rikae and then switching to Kitanna when she was suspected for this.

I'm posting this now but no doubt I'll have crossed by the time it gets there!

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Kath

A difference between Legate's enthusiasm and what? Not quite sure what you're trying to say there.

Disagreed with his original take here (Post 37):

OK, Legate, let me ask you: What exactly do we have to gain from the kind of fake vote you're suggesting?
If it is just that, a fake vote with no real lynch as per G55, we've effectively wasted a day, nobody has to fear the consequences of their vote because without a lynch, we won't know whether they voted for an innoent or a wolf, and the wolves can go wolf-on-wolf to their hearts' content witrh no danger to any of them.
If it's just that people announce beforehand whom they are planning to vote, and the vote takes place later, and we compare what people said before to how they actually voted, how is this different from what we usually do?
This strikes me as a pseudo-useful suggestion/discussion. *ping*

Agreed with Pitch's assessment here (Post 98):

Why did I pressure Legate rather than G55 re the fake votes? The difference between

1) G55 throwing out an idea to stir up a discussion, and

2) Legate picking it up and going "Oh yes that's a good idea let's totally do that!", when I thought it was a) not helpful and b) needlessly overcomplicating things. But my last note on him, on his reply to G55 in #44, was 'actually sensible?'

Which I read as "ok, this makes more sense because I agree there is a difference between 1 and 2."

Then goes back and forth on G55 afterwards. His reasons for this flip-flopping were unrelated to Legate. But for (Post 163)

G55 is all over the place, fairly confrontational, sometimes eyebrow-raising (about Urwen/Maeglin: really?). Her all-out attack on Rikae just now does sound a lot like passionate innocent though and makes me feel better about her.
Paradoxically, so does Rikae's response so far.

My read on it came to the conclusion that he was early on trying to play both sides between Legate and G55. Which I can't understand a reason for since post #98 made a lot of sense.

Edit: crossed with everyone since Kath's #213

[Rikae]

So, just putting this here because I think this could be important later. This Brinn-wagon everyone's talking about is two votes at this point, mine and Pitch's.

And the people who expressed concern about it are Huey, Lottie and Inzil, in that order (let me know if I missed someone).

Now, I found Pitch suspicious from the beginning, although just for vibes really, and Brinn could have started looking like a convenient vote. On the other hand, three people pushing back on a wagon for coming out of nowhere after two reasoned votes (by day 1 standards) is odd, too, especially if Brinn turns out wolfish or the trolley is redirected toward an innocent. Lottie's and Inzil's positions in the anti-Brinnwagon-wagon are, that is - Huey's is pretty bold.

Edit: X'd with everything since Shasta #233

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Translation: "I'm trying to frame an innocent but I don't want to get my own hands dirty, can someone help me out?"

This in reply to Hui who was actually wondering where the Mac-suspicion came from (as Greenie has explained).

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Actually, I usually get super nervous as a wolf and then it shows

Hmmm...

[A Little Green]

Instead of rereading, I wrote a list to try and figure out who I need to reread. And, presumably, cross-posting with about a page's worth of stuff

Lhuna – I’m not a fan of self-voting, and don’t agree with her on hating Day 1s – though I appreciate that’s a matter of opinion. Says she feels uneasy about Brinn, Inzil, Kitanna, Mac and Boro in the same post where she votes for herself. This could be convenient for a wolf as she’s effectively washing her hands of the whole lynch while still casting suspicion around, but on the other hand, would a wolf really go to the extent of voting for herself to avoid being associated with lynching somebody? It would be a flamboyantly risky move and I’m not sure if it would be worth it. Leaning innocent.

Kitanna – Called jumpy or tense by Lhuna and Gal55. Rune brings up a fair point on potential opportunism in how she latched on to Lhuna’s first post as suspicious. Need a reread.

Boro – Chirpy but I agree with Lommy that he's being oddly noncommittal. One to watch.

Lommy - Seemed a little on edge earlier regarding Gal and Legate’s fake-vote-plan, but was quite blasé about Huin’s suspicion of her (to the point of saying she’s doing exactly what she’d do as a wolf) which makes me more inclined to think she’s innocent than not. *** Okay since I wrote that she has said Huin is shady for suspecting her because she thinks she’s acting innocent. ??? I'd say that's just chirpy Lommy happy to be playing again but putting Huin on her suspect list because she thinks she looks innocent and he should agree is a bit strange even for her.

Legate – I don’t agree with a lot of what he’s saying but I’m leaning innocent on him too. Also potentially noteworthy though is his disagreement with those who think he is being framed. The convenient wolf thing to do in his circumstances would be to tacitly agree and play the “poor framed me” card (also takes care of finding someone to legitimately vote for), though admittedly an ordo feeling unjustly under fire could also be likely to believe he was being framed. But whatever his motives, Legate isn’t doing this.

The Ka – Calm and collected and reasonable. The trouble is, I know she can sound just as reasonable when she’s evil as when she’s not. Need a reread.

Brinn –This caught my eye:

Originally Posted by Brinn

I'm still a bit wary of G55 and Pitchwife (less so of the former), however I don't want to get caught in a trap. I think I will stay clear of this potential mess for toDay and focus elsewhere.

This is almost too blatantly convenient: keeping the perceived main suspects under fire by saying she is wary of them, but explicitly saying she will stay clear of the potential mess and go for someone else. My only concern is over whether a Brinnwolf would really say that so directly. Still, this is the fishiest thing I’ve seen so far so definitely merits a reread.

Kath - So far I agree with Gal55’s assessment of likely ordo figuring things out as she goes.

Rikae – Always tricky, but I like what I see so far – feels like an innocent Rikae poking around for reactions. Has a curious back and forth with Gal55.

Gal55 – Introduced the fake-vote-plan, then backtracked and found Legate odd for agreeing with it. More trigger-happy than most – suspected Lommy and Ka early on for disregarding early posts as evidence, which would have been a fair point but I read their comments more as offhand remarks on specific posts rather than serious arguments about the usefulness of early posts. Now very, very vocal against Rikae. Could be too chaotic for a wolf.

Rune – Brief, to the point, nothing to alarm (or reassure) me so far.

Eonwe - Careful and sensible, nothing alarming yet either. Hard to judge though as he seems sensible even when he's a wolf!

Inzil – I see my classic trap of getting nervous about Inzil because I don’t suspect him. Need a reread.

Mac – Interesting back and forth with Pitchwife where they’re essentially suspecting each other of doing things they do themselves. Suspected by Rikae and Legate, defended by Huin. No major alarm bells so far.

Pitchwife – I actually found his aforementioned interactions with Mac more interesting than those with Gal55 and Legate, but need a reread to figure any of it out.

Huinesoron – Doesn’t follow the herd and brings up points others haven’t. Suspected Lommy, defended Mac. I get a good vibe so far, though worth keeping an eye on.

Urwen – Nothing to analyse yet, hope she makes another appearance
Lalaith – Haven’t seen much of her yet either
Shasta – Come back please
Sally – You too

Lottie – Flying completely under my radar, which is odd considering she’s been around a fair bit. Definitely need a reread.


EDIT: x-ed since Eonwe's list

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Instead of rereading, I wrote a list to try and figure out who I need to reread. And, presumably, cross-posting with about a page's worth of stuff

Lhuna – I’m not a fan of self-voting, and don’t agree with her on hating Day 1s – though I appreciate that’s a matter of opinion. Says she feels uneasy about Brinn, Inzil, Kitanna, Mac and Boro in the same post where she votes for herself. This could be convenient for a wolf as she’s effectively washing her hands of the whole lynch while still casting suspicion around, but on the other hand, would a wolf really go to the extent of voting for herself to avoid being associated with lynching somebody? It would be a flamboyantly risky move and I’m not sure if it would be worth it. Leaning innocent.

I wouldn't go that far. Nilp-esque self-votes don't strike me as alignment-indicative for some people, and Lhuna is one of those people (from what I can recall, anyway, it's been quite some time!)

Kitanna – Called jumpy or tense by Lhuna and Gal55. Rune brings up a fair point on potential opportunism in how she latched on to Lhuna’s first post as suspicious. Need a reread.

Boro – Chirpy but I agree with Lommy that he's being oddly noncommittal. One to watch.

I don't know if I agree that opportunism this early makes sense; I also tend to think, based on Greenie's read of the situation, that Rune ought to look just as opportunistic, but doesn't for some reason? Why's that, Greenie?

Shrug re: Boro.

Lommy - Seemed a little on edge earlier regarding Gal and Legate’s fake-vote-plan, but was quite blasé about Huin’s suspicion of her (to the point of saying she’s doing exactly what she’d do as a wolf) which makes me more inclined to think she’s innocent than not. *** Okay since I wrote that she has said Huin is shady for suspecting her because she thinks she’s acting innocent. ??? I'd say that's just chirpy Lommy happy to be playing again but putting Huin on her suspect list because she thinks she looks innocent and he should agree is a bit strange even for her.

Hm. I don't know if I agree with this take.

Legate – I don’t agree with a lot of what he’s saying but I’m leaning innocent on him too. Also potentially noteworthy though is his disagreement with those who think he is being framed. The convenient wolf thing to do in his circumstances would be to tacitly agree and play the “poor framed me” card (also takes care of finding someone to legitimately vote for), though admittedly an ordo feeling unjustly under fire could also be likely to believe he was being framed. But whatever his motives, Legate isn’t doing this.

I recall getting good vibes from reading what Legate had to say last night, in terms of me agreeing with him. Not sure about the framing aspect, I probably need context for that.[/quote]

The Ka – Calm and collected and reasonable. The trouble is, I know she can sound just as reasonable when she’s evil as when she’s not. Need a reread.

Brinn –This caught my eye:

This is almost too blatantly convenient: keeping the perceived main suspects under fire by saying she is wary of them, but explicitly saying she will stay clear of the potential mess and go for someone else. My only concern is over whether a Brinnwolf would really say that so directly. Still, this is the fishiest thing I’ve seen so far so definitely merits a reread.

Waffled a bit about typing this, but shrug, why not. I think if Greenie is evil, she's very easily evil with Ka here. That's the exact kind of nonread a wolf gives about another wolf.

I do enjoy the read on Brinniel though, I think it's got merit in terms of what innocent-Greenie might think. So six of one, half-dozen of the other.

Kath - So far I agree with Gal55’s assessment of likely ordo figuring things out as she goes.

Rikae – Always tricky, but I like what I see so far – feels like an innocent Rikae poking around for reactions. Has a curious back and forth with Gal55.

Didn't realize Kath was playing, but that's my own failing.

Agree on Rikae.

Gal55 – Introduced the fake-vote-plan, then backtracked and found Legate odd for agreeing with it. More trigger-happy than most – suspected Lommy and Ka early on for disregarding early posts as evidence, which would have been a fair point but I read their comments more as offhand remarks on specific posts rather than serious arguments about the usefulness of early posts. Now very, very vocal against Rikae. Could be too chaotic for a wolf.

"Too chaotic for a wolf" is the basis of my Cobbler read there.

Rune – Brief, to the point, nothing to alarm (or reassure) me so far.

Eonwe - Careful and sensible, nothing alarming yet either. Hard to judge though as he seems sensible even when he's a wolf!

Inzil – I see my classic trap of getting nervous about Inzil because I don’t suspect him. Need a reread.

See Ka. These all sound the same. Not saying it's bad, but it's notable to me at least. The Rune read also has the discrepancy between it and the Kitanna read to think about.

Mac – Interesting back and forth with Pitchwife where they’re essentially suspecting each other of doing things they do themselves. Suspected by Rikae and Legate, defended by Huin. No major alarm bells so far.

This one I want to check on. I don't have a read on Mac myself yet.

Pitchwife – I actually found his aforementioned interactions with Mac more interesting than those with Gal55 and Legate, but need a reread to figure any of it out.

Pitch is an interesting case. I want to hear what caused him to speak up about Eonwe's list - Pitch, do you not find several of Greenie's reads to be as "agreeable"?

Huinesoron – Doesn’t follow the herd and brings up points others haven’t. Suspected Lommy, defended Mac. I get a good vibe so far, though worth keeping an eye on.

I don't have a baseline here.

Urwen – Nothing to analyse yet, hope she makes another appearance
Lalaith – Haven’t seen much of her yet either
Shasta – Come back please
Sally – You too

Lottie – Flying completely under my radar, which is odd considering she’s been around a fair bit. Definitely need a reread.


EDIT: x-ed since Eonwe's list

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Reading and writing as I go... note: the beginning of this is like three hours old. Been checking and typing in between work whenever I had time.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

I read this as "maybe veer away from lists" and just say you're going to commit to one person, even if you don't vote that way. I see where you're coming from as the lists help wolves form bandwagons and this will force them to really push their accusations. Except this will force innocents to do the same, with the same bloody lynching result. It's early and maybe I'm reading all this wrong, but this idea seems as likely to backfire as to succeed.

Well, as you see, I just made a list myself. Anyway, the idea was people could do whatever they want, even make lists (I like lists), but then, when the clock strikes, they would have to say "ok and out of my list, I actually pick THIS ONE".

The main benefit of this would be that we could then see who would be "lynched" under such circumstances - and then that could be helpful in tracing the Wolves. Because in "real" voting, WWs are calculating to save their mates and so on. In "dry run", it isn't so clear, and then they may be a bit at loss as to what to do. Would they cast their "pseudo-vote" to "save" their packmate even if it is only a dry run? But what if then the real vote happens and the situation goes the same way and they have to change their vote? They need to provide an explanation. It may draw eyes. Etc etc. THAT was the chief merit behind the theory that was discussed so lengthily here.

Anyway, on another note, Kitanna sorta made my red lights flash now, too.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Not helpful whatsoever? I dunno, the need to point out "this wasn't helpful" makes me raise my eyebrows. We already had some posts and discussions going when you chimed in and it just seems suspicious you felt the need to point out you had nothing to add at the time. "Look at me, I'm definitely innocent because I haven't said anything of real merit."

I sorta don't like the way Kitanna points fingers at Lhuna here. Yes, she may have just happened to make that one random observation, but the way it goes...

And the whole "oh I don't know if we should do this or that..." is kinda, I don't know. I simply get "fake vibe" here. Like she was not willing to commit until she learns where the wind blows. (Wind. Get it? *dun dun dun dun* -Note: once again, no relation to Inziladun whatsoever)

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But wasn't that the purported point of the "fake" vote: to keep last-ditch voting down?

Yes, but this was already said with the knowledge that this was probably not happening, plus anyway, I still expect people to vote in the last twenty minutes, with or without any "voting dry run". And the votes would change, very likely, in the last few hours, not the least because of people's reactions to the "results" of the dry-run voting (or would they? That's precisely the thing we would not know without trying it first).

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Oof. Three pages of posts already. Five wolves in there somewhere causing chaos, with a cobbler urging them on.
I'd better get reading....

That was as fishy first post as they go. "Everyone is a Wolf, hint hint not me."

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

As far as I can see, most of it is agreement with and slight expansion on what other people had said; is that what you meant by 'fishy as Angband', Legate? You talk about pointing fingers, but other than the explicit point at Galadriel55, it all looks like fairly general musing on wolves.

Pointing fingers "under one's breath", i.e. saying that something is questionable while mentioning a name at the same time, so the reader can connect them themselves while the original poster doesn't need to be perceived as the one who said it in the first place, is one of classic Wolf-tactics, one I am always more inclined to look for.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

*side eyes both* Orchestrated wolf action? I suppose not likely, but the more I read of G55 the more I raise my eyebrows.
She distanced herself from her own idea, was quick to challenge Legate when he found the merit in it, and has been fairly vocal throughout. And yet, when I try to think of anything detailed she said, I draw a blank. She's been helpful and has urged on discussion and I'm finding her a little too helpful.

On the one hand G55 set something up and waited for an innocent to take the bait and then distanced herself the moment it fell under scrutiny. Her move is a bold one for a Day 1 ploy to try to bandwagon an innocent. Bold and fairly early in the Day.
On the other hand wolfPitch sees an idea that is probably doomed to fail. He picks the second person to pick it up and doesn't really cast suspicion on the actual creator. Pitch then sets up Legate for trouble.
In the whole fake vote debate, I am leaning toward trusting Legate over G55 who first suggested it and Pitch who was so vocal in disputing it.

This sounds like a Wolf making up a random accusation if I have ever seen one. As in, the type of behaviour a Wolf might have if they are like "I need to find someone to suspect on Day 1, oh, here's some two players saying something, I can latch onto that". That sort of thing for a Wolf who would not be in the thick of things, but would want to just quietly pursue some case in their own little corner.

Also because I don't personally believe that it was an attempt to "set me up", or not in the way people seem to be latching on to presenting it. I think Pitch quite rightfully saw me as expanding on the idea while when G55 mentioned it, it was really just a random remark. I find it much more likely that someone picked on the "this was an attempt to set Legate up" notion to raise suspicion about those who did.

I will reread Kitanna's posts a bit, but she would likely be my "fake vote" toDay, at least (or to put it another way, if I was forced to vote right now).

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Mac, really? You find it odd how I pinned the no-vote stuff on Legate, when earlier you yourself found it just as odd how enthusiastic he was about it? Now that I find odd! *ping*

Maybe I shouldn't, but I just find this amusing

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's like Gandalf versus the Balrog to use that analogy. To me, he's got a powerful and deserved reputation. I'll go for it, but I don't charge head on, because I know I won't come out the same person.

Man, can I ship ya folks? (Sorry. Lommy taught me that kind of vocabulary.)

Originally Posted by Lhunardawen

You mean like this?

++NILPAURIO-- I mean

++LHUNARDAWEN

Seriously!!! That's about the most unhelpful thing ever!!! I mean, I understand you are substituting Nilp, but I'm with Kant on this one. You shouldn't make the example of doing something that might corrupt others to do the same!

x-ed with plenty probably, I'm still in haphazard schedule on when I am around and when not.

EDIT: x-ed basically since the abovequoted post. Page 4, terrifying. (Although again, with the size of the village, could be worse.)

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Man, can I ship ya folks? (Sorry. Lommy taught me that kind of vocabulary.)

I was wondering if I should worry about the way Boro was buttering Mac up ...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Rikae

I was wondering if I should worry about the way Boro was buttering Mac up ...

Do people like Mac without butter? Wait..maybe I'm confusing Mac for MaC (Macaroni and Cheese). Anyways, continue.