The First Lord of the Rings Map - new discoveries in the East

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mhagain

Yes, there's text in, I think, HoME XII that confirms this, the Sea of Rhûn was one of the stopping-off points on the Great March. The Cirdan material in XII is the place to look, IIRC.

HME XII 391. However, these "Late Writings" also mention, in slightly greater detail, the sojourn of the Peoples of Beor and Marach (Hador) on the shores of the Sea of Rhun during their much later migration: and there is not a trace of an Eldarin population at that time.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

HME XII 391. However, these "Late Writings" also mention, in slightly greater detail, the sojourn of the Peoples of Beor and Marach (Hador) on the shores of the Sea of Rhun during their much later migration: and there is not a trace of an Eldarin population at that time.

Thank you both! I've looked up both these references, and what strikes me is that the Beor/Marach text very specifically places one group in the forests to the north-east ("Neldoreth"), and the other in the hills to the south-west.

Dorwinion, meanwhile, per Tolkien's notes on the Baynes map, is in the north-west regions of the Sea, where the Celduin flows into it. Given that (per the Beor/Marach text) it took Men ages to realise that there were other mortals around the Sea, they could certainly have missed an Eldarin presence.

What I'm wondering is whether "Neldoreth" is a survivor of a great eastern forest, and whether the Celduin vale was the first non-forested area the Great March encountered. If some of the Teleri had a strong preference for open skies, the combination of "wide open spaces" and "big sea to boat about on" could have induced them to stay.

This would also explain the settling patterns further west: the Amon Lanc group were spooked by the open spaces, so stopped when they reached a hill that let them confirm there were woods all around them again, while the Lorien group stopped once they hit the mountains and went "nah, we're staying in the woods".

None of these were 'kingdoms' (or even named); they were just scattered populations strung out along the line of the March. We know this for sure, because when the Sindar showed up, they simply put themselves in charge. I actually wonder whether for most of the Second Age, Amdir and Oropher were 'kings' only of their Sindarin followers, with the Nandor pretty much ignoring them.

The name, like the kingdom, would have come later. I would imagine Neldoreth was named first, in memory of Doriath; when the Sindar realised they could grow wine along Celduin, they revived the name of Dorwinion for their new realm.

Oh, and for bonus points:

Blador: Noldorin (early Sindarin), 'World'. Relative of 'Palurien', name of Yavanna.

Thind: Sindarin, 'Grey', as in Thingol.

Bladorthin: 'King of the Clouded Land/Misty Vale/Grey World'.

^_^

hS

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Given that (per the Beor/Marach text) it took Men ages to realise that there were other mortals around the Sea, they could certainly have missed an Eldarin presence.

The Silmarillion also states that Finrod was the first of the Eldar met by Men, but this might be one of those cases where Tolkien had something more specific in mind, in this case maybe "Eldar in Beleriand" rather than "Eldar of the March". However, Men on their way west did have dealings with Dark Elves, so maybe the Sea of Rhûn is indeed one of those places where such dealings happened, but the later text just omitted to mention it.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by mhagain

The Silmarillion also states that Finrod was the first of the Eldar met by Men, but this might be one of those cases where Tolkien had something more specific in mind, in this case maybe "Eldar in Beleriand" rather than "Eldar of the March".

My memory is that the Silm generally takes the Valinorean position of using "Eldar" specifically to refer to the Calaquendi + Sindar, so this would still fit.

Another thought which has occurred: if the idea that the Sea of Rhun is the north-western remnant of the Inland Sea of Helcar is correct, then Dorwinion would be the point where the Great March finally stopped following the coastline. That seems like a really plausible place for some of the Teleri to drop out.

Alternately: this is the Silm's description of the War for the Sake of the Elves:

Originally Posted by Silm

the Quendi knew nothing of the great Battle of the Powers, save that the Earth shook and groaned beneath them, and the waters were moved

Given that the Valar were in the habit of making and breaking mountains in their wars, I wonder whether "the waters were moved" is a reference to the breaking of the Inland Sea of Helcar. If Morgoth's defences included raising Orodruin and the mountains of Mordor in the middle of that sea (HoME XII says he created the volcano during the long First Age), then what the Eldar marched past following the war could have been the dried-up coastline of the Sea. The Sea of Rhun would have been a glorious return to the coastlines of their first home, and one which some of them would have hated to give up again.

(Possible supporting evidence: Silm says that before they reached Anduin, the Eldar passed "through a forest". This could imply that they previously hadn't been through many forests - which lends some support to the idea of a landscape still recovering from a War of the Powers.)

hS

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Given the Neldoreth simply means "Beechwood," it could easily have been used twice at different times by different populations without reference to one another. Vide the very common placenames Blackwater, Beaverdam etc.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Given the Neldoreth simply means "Beechwood," it could easily have been used twice at different times by different populations without reference to one another. Vide the very common placenames Blackwater, Beaverdam etc.

Entirely possible! My theory that it isn't is based on two (maybe three) points:

1. There's no text placing a Sindarin-speaking population in that area. Gondor exerted at least theoretical authority up to the Sea of Rhun at one point, but I don't think anything hints that they encircled the lake. Note that other features in the area - the River Running, Lonely Mountain, Lake Town, Mirkwood - may have Sindarin names, but they are known by their Common Speech names. There's no evidence of Westron equivalents for the regions around the Sea of Rhun.

2. Neldoreth isn't the only Beleriandic name reused around the Sea of Rhun: there's also Dorwinion. One instance may be coincidence, but two starts to look like a conspiracy.

3. There's an actual canonical statement that the Teleri stopped for a while on the shores of the Sea of Rhun. Given their habit of splitting off at random times, a splinter population is entirely plausible - and all the other known Silvan populations after the First Age wound up with Beleriandic Sindar ruling them.

hS