A military historian on the Siege of Gondor - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Galadriel55 · 08-07-2020, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Unless an immediate assault is intended.

Yes. The plan was not to lay siege to Minas Tirith to starve it out, the plan was to conquer by fear and fire and dark magic within a few days and more onward to presumably secure the lands beyond - Gondor, Rohan, who knows how far west and north from there. Also, if the siege is taking too long, they might leave a sufficient force to guard the city while the bulk of the army might just move onward to subdue the small forces scattered around Gondor or reinforce the roads to allies, like they have with the Rohirrim, or do whatever other goal Sauron might have had. The invasion wasn't supposed to stop at conquering Minas Tirith.

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-10-2020, 05:58 PM

Huinesoron · 11-13-2020, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

More from Devereaux- this time analyzing (scathingly) the movies' Helm's Deep campaign and battle (short version- if movie-Theoden had "fought many wars," he sure didn't learn a single thing from any of them!)

Cool! It took me a few days to get through it (but still felt like less time than the Helm's Deep sequence in the movie...

). I liked that (part of) the takeaway was "the Witch-King was an idiot because Jackson didn't understand the books; Saruman was an idiot because Tolkien deliberately wrote him that way".

I did not need reminding about "cavalry charge down a 45-degree slope directly into a wall of pikes" being Gandalf's strategy for victory, though.

He also made an interesting comment somewhere early on: that the Battle of the Hornburg is somewhat sparse on details, because Tolkien deliberately avoids his characters As-You-Know-Bob-ing at each other, and there's no conveniently ignorant hobbits around to be explained to. I put that together with my own memory that the battle seems to mostly be told by its lulls - Aragorn talking to Theoden, Legolas and Gimli counting shots, etc - and that it's explicitly a battle where the viewpoint characters don't know everything - doesn't Aragorn spend half of it thinking Eomer's probably dead? - and remembered just how very different Tolkien is from his successors and imitators.

hS

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-13-2020, 11:27 AM

Quote:

battle where the viewpoint characters don't know everything

Truth in television: Tolkien, as a communications officer in combat, knew very well about the 'fog of war' and the fact that participants don't know anything about what's going on beyond what they can see (not much), and the commanders know little more than whatever messages might reach them (usually late and garbled).

A problem with the movie trilogy throughout is that everyone always knows too much.

Kuruharan · 11-20-2020, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Apparenly I must spread some reputation around before I can give it to William Cloud Hicklin again.

While overall this continues to be a very good series (I enjoyed the discussion on cavalry tactics especially) there is something that got my goat this time.

While I agree with Mr. Devereaux's contention that Saruman's army was a fundamentally green and untested force which contributed significantly to its ultimate defeat, I think that the author significantly underestimates how long Saruman had been building and preparing his army, which I think serves to diminish the achievement of the Rohirrim in defeating Saruman.

The biggest problem in the article is that I think the author assigns the movie far too much esteem, even though he is still mostly criticizing it. Specifically to this topic, I think the orc spawning in the films was nonsense.

Admittedly, the problem is that we are mostly left in the dark about orc breeding (which in most respects is probably just as well). However, it is stated that orcs "breed and multiply after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar." To me this renders it impossible that the film conception of orc birth and growth can be accurate. Much of Mr. Devereaux's argument is based upon the idea that Saruman spawned and reared the entire corps of the Fighting Uruk-hai over the course of six months.

I think that is just malarkey, but that is a disagreement rooted in our fundamental disagreement about the value and quality of the ideas in the films.

Admittedly, it is a weakness in the written story that Gandalf somehow failed to perceive the changes in Isengard when he initially arrived (most prominently that there were wargs and orcs about.) I concede this is an issue. Maybe he was just in such a hurry to get into the tower to talk to Saruman and had tunnel vision. One explanation is that the orcs were housed on the far side of Isengard (and probably also largely underground) so that they may have been out of sight of Gandalf when he arrived. Another explanation for it is this is just one of those spots in the story that Tolkien didn't write very well. There are a few of those, and realistically this is the most likely explanation.

As an aside, Saruman’s Uruk-hai themselves are an extremely ambiguous feature in the trilogy. There are basically two possibilities regarding them: A) They were a new breed of uruks especially crafted by Saruman, this is the usual interpretation, and the one that is best supported textually. It does beg the question of where Saruman got his breeding stock. It also begs the question of how long Saruman had been up to this. Breeding them after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar would suggest a minimum of a decade and a half of work if Saruman started from scratch.

There is another possibility.

An alternative interpretation of The Uruk-hai chapter in The Two Towers could be that Saruman’s uruk-hai were just Mordor uruk-hai that he had co-opted somehow and retrained and equipped to a different style of fighting. Uglúk and Grishnákh seem kind of familiar with each other, moreso perhaps than just the few weeks of acquaintance we definitely know about from the text might suggest. Also, if the Isengard uruks were purely Saruman’s creation, why would Grishnákh think that threatening to report them to Barad-dur would make the slightest impression on them.

However, neither of these possibilities changes the fact that Saruman must have invested years, if not decades, into the development of his new army. Co-opting and retraining Mordorian uruks would actually be the faster way to go about this, but that would still be a years long endeavor. You don’t relearn how to fight with new tools quickly.

Of course, I think the true answer to this problem is that Tolkien himself didn’t work it out. As we know, he struggled with the conception of orcs until the very end. We could also get into the question of just what exactly an orc is and is it possible or even likely that elves, men, and orcs might just be various forms of the same species (making dwarves the only special beings about.

)

As a final aside, I do have to smirk a bit about Mr. Devereaux's complaint that the movie uruks mostly just grunt and growl at each other. If they are only six months old beasts with almost no socialization, OF COURSE all they are going to be capable of is screeching at each other and everything else. But I give Jackson no credit for this. I’m sure this is just something he accidently managed to “get right.”

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-20-2020, 09:46 AM

In Deveraux's defense, it must be said that he is explicitly criticizing the movies, with sidebars about the book (and how much more plausible Tolkien's version was).

Kuruharan · 11-20-2020, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In Deveraux's defense, it must be said that he is explicitly criticizing the movies, with sidebars about the book (and how much more plausible Tolkien's version was).

Understood. I don't think he went far enough.

William Cloud Hicklin · 11-20-2020, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Yes. The plan was not to lay siege to Minas Tirith to starve it out, the plan was to conquer by fear and fire and dark magic within a few days and more onward to presumably secure the lands beyond - Gondor, Rohan, who knows how far west and north from there. Also, if the siege is taking too long, they might leave a sufficient force to guard the city while the bulk of the army might just move onward to subdue the small forces scattered around Gondor or reinforce the roads to allies, like they have with the Rohirrim, or do whatever other goal Sauron might have had. The invasion wasn't supposed to stop at conquering Minas Tirith.

But in that case you don't send your exploitation reserve to the end of the logistical tether; you keep them near a supply base. It would make perfect sense for the W-K to keep his battle-reserve at Osgiliath, as in the book, and his exploitation-reserve at Minas Morgul where they could eat without burdening the system, while still being just a day's march from the crossings of Anduin.

Real-world example, which Tolkien knew: the Somme. Haig's exploitation reserve was the Reserve Army under Gough, which (in the original plan and OOB) comprised three cavalry divisions, kept well back from the trench lines and expected to rush into the German rear after the Fourth Army broke through. Another, contemorary with the LR: Montgomery's Operations Epsom and Goodwood around Caen were supposed to create a gap in the German lines through which the 7th Armoured, held in reserve, would go lolloping off towards Falaise.

11-10-2020, 05:58 PM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	More from Devereaux- this time analyzing (scathingly) the movies' Helm's Deep campaign and battle (short version- if movie-Theoden had "fought many wars," he sure didn't learn a single thing from any of them!) https://acoup.blog/2020/05/01/collec...at-helms-gate/ https://acoup.blog/2020/05/08/collec...ii-total-warg/ https://acoup.blog/2020/05/15/collec...st-of-saruman/ https://acoup.blog/2020/05/22/collec...-men-of-rohan/ https://acoup.blog/2020/05/28/collec...ers-are-chaos/ https://acoup.blog/2020/06/05/collec...-a-good-sword/ https://acoup.blog/2020/06/12/collec...g-by-a-thread/ https://acoup.blog/2020/06/19/collec...nd-of-saruman/ __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

11-20-2020, 09:46 AM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	In Deveraux's defense, it must be said that he is explicitly criticizing the movies, with sidebars about the book (and how much more plausible Tolkien's version was). __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.