Re-imagining the Ringwraiths

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Was there a single character in the book whom Jackson et. al. didn't distort and diminish? Maybe Bill the Pony, I dunno.

Oi! That animal can nearly talk - or would talk, if Tolkien let Frodo & co stay in Rivendell for just a bit longer.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Which makes it all the more remarkable how Maggot, a simple hobbit farmer, found the courage to stand up to a Black Rider and tell him to get off his land, and quickly, or else!

I think part of it really was that the Nazgul were deliberately "being gentle', as they wanted to get answers but not wreck too much havoc in that part of the world quite yet. Find Baggins quickly, without word reaching said Baggins that something is afoot. They seem to veil their true power, or true terror. It's like you say - their true nature is revealed more and more gradually throughout Book I.

The Gaffer also encounters the Nazgul, but we get that account second hand from Sam, and there is no sense of how the Gaffer fares courage-wise. He doesn't sound as gutsy as Maggot, but not much beyond that. He calls the Nazgul a "strange customer" who gave hi "quite a shudder" - but the extent of that shudder is left to be imagined. Still, seeing as the Gaffer seemed to be pretty calm about the whole affair.

That is in contrast to Fatty Bolger, who is so terrified that he sprints an entire mile and babbles about not having the Ring. However, Fatty was facing the Nazgul who were prepared to finally reveal their strength and attack, not the Nazgul who were on a secret mission. He feels their presence as a growing fear long before he actually sees their shapes, and no wonder he is terrified and flees when his anxiety is "confirmed".

Originally Posted by Pitch

About the Nine and Sauron, I think you're spot-on with bringing up Gollum, Boro. They were probably like him, only far further gone in their addiction to their rings and without a chance of ever regaining them. Maybe their relationship to Sauron was something like between a junkie and their dealer - I mean, deep down they must have known that their rings would never be given back, but they just couldn't help themselves doing his bidding. Also maybe he could use the bond between them and their rings to do things to their spirits. It doesn't bear thinking about too closely.

Speaking of the Devil... Once you sell your soul, he kinda owns it, whether you like it or not. I highly doubt that the Nazgul like serving Sauron, but they are trapped. But I sort of assumed that this "trap" was on such a deep existential level that disobedience would be unthinkable. The UT quote Boro brings up shows that not to be quite the case - though the threatened punishment is not for disobedience, but rather for incompetence. I am not imagining Sauron screaming "You had one job!" at the Nazgul. So perhaps despite a firm bond of loyalty they can still allow themselves to do a job lazily or half-heartedly, if Sauron thinks that threats would entice them to work better. Or maybe Sauron knows they are doing their best and is still punishing their failure because anger management issues, and because he never received training on positive team building or something.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It helps if one stops envisioning the Ringwraiths as a death-metal album cover and more as black holes in reality. I agree that the movie Dementors get much closer than PJ ever did.

[Kuruharan]

Like Boro I recently started a fresh read through of Lord of the Rings for the first time in a long, long time.

While I can never really recapture what it was like to hear the stories for the first time (my first time was having them read aloud to me as a child), the length of time since the last reading has really given me a fresh perspective on things that I had not realized or had forgotten about.

One sign that it had been far too long since the last time I read them is that I have been favorably impressed with the richness and elegence of Tolkien's writing style compared to our contemporary writers.

Anyway, to the topic at hand...

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

It's interesting how the Nazgûl grew in stature during Book One - or, you might say, how more and more of their true nature was revealed both to and by the author - , from their first appearance, surrounded by an air of vague unease and creepiness, to the double climax in A Knife in the Dark and Flight to the Ford.

This stuck out to me because that is not the personal impression I gained in my recent readthrough.

To me the terror of the Nazgûl peaked in Bree. Their ability to simultaneously strike with potentially deadly force in Crickhollow and in the very building where the Ring was hiding and the unsettling tone for these episodes set me on edge. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that is the first time we see the Nine strike and do damage in the story (property damage only, but damage nonetheless).

Beyond that point, and I know it is partially from knowledge, but the presence of Strider was a grounding influence in the story, even though in an absolute sense the danger increased.

Another thing that struck me in this readthrough was how woefully unprepared the hobbits were for a journey of this nature. I remember thinking as they were leaving Tom Bombadil that, "These guys would never have a chance in the Wild on their own."

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It helps if one stops envisioning the Ringwraiths as a death-metal album cover and more as black holes in reality. I agree that the movie Dementors get much closer than PJ ever did.

Black Holes in Reality sounds like the name of a death metal band.

[Formendacil]

In hindsight, now that the question has been posed, I don't think I ever minded the visual look of PJ's Black Riders. Perhaps some happy medium would have brought them a bit closer to the movie-Dementors, giving more emphasis to their robes being something they wear "to give shape to their nothingness," but the overall look of the PJ Riders was fine by me.

But, I agree that there is something lacking about them, and I think that it's entirely the nature of the medium. The Nazgûl's chief weapon is terror and dread--though the ruined beds in the Prancing Pony should be a reminder that they do act more in the physical realm than floating Dementors. The main way that a movie conveys feeling is through visuals and through the score, but it's ultimately going to have the same issues as portraying stench: the medium simply doesn't do it.

As far as the score goes, I think Howard Shore actually doesn't a decent job with the FotR Nazgûl--at least until they're past Bree. It's the Winged Nazgûl of the later books that really get short-shrift. And this is at least in part because their magnum opus is Minas Tirith during the Great Darkness, but the movie never quite managed the darkness for me and the baseline of Minas Tirith was all messed up by a platter of juicy tomatoes (i.e. Denethor's descent into madness and despair, which parallel's his city's loss of hope under the shadow of the Nazgûl, isn't really a descent in the movies--he starts there).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

to simultaneously strike with potentially deadly force....in the very building where the Ring was hiding

though the ruined beds in the Prancing Pony should be a reminder that they do act more in the physical realm

This is a very common misperception, which PJ picked up and ran with- but it's in error. Tolkien was explicit (it's somewhere in HME or UT) that the Pony burglary was carried out by Bill Ferny, Harry Goatleaf and the cross-eyed Southerner at the Wraiths' orders, not by the Nazgul personally.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Black Holes in Reality sounds like the name of a death metal band.

I would think more of an emo band. "OMG! They're like The Smiths, but even more depressing!"

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

This is a very common misperception, which PJ picked up and ran with- but it's in error. Tolkien was explicit (it's somewhere in HME or UT) that the Pony burglary was carried out by Bill Ferny, Harry Goatleaf and the cross-eyed Southerner at the Wraiths' orders, not by the Nazgul personally.

That's true, in that I also had long assumed that the Black Riders had broken into the hobbit bedroom themselves. I remember in the Bakshi cartoon I saw when very young that that was indeed the depiction.

That said, the Nine clearly aren't just smoke and mirrors. The Black Captain had sufficient physical strength to break Éowyn's shield (and her arm with it) using his mace, and the home-invaders at Crickhollow were able to break open the door of the house.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

This is a very common misperception, which PJ picked up and ran with- but it's in error. Tolkien was explicit (it's somewhere in HME or UT) that the Pony burglary was carried out by Bill Ferny, Harry Goatleaf and the cross-eyed Southerner at the Wraiths' orders, not by the Nazgul personally.

Yes. I for a while thought it was the other Ringwraiths who attacked Bree, just as habit from other adaptations. And to be fair to Jackson, as Inzil notes, all the adaptations I'm familiar have the Ringwraiths tear up the beds.

This recent reading I've been doing, I discovered it was Ferny and his men. At least Aragorn seems to think so, when they were expecting an attack on the inn:

'No, I think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people - not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe the gatekeeper too...'~Strider

I believe it's noted that 4 of them entered the Shire and then raided Frodo's house at Crickhollow. That's quite a different situation though, as they didn't have any hobbits to do their bidding but there also wasn't going to be much resistance. At Bree, I believe 1 had ridden into town, there might have been 2 (the other 3 were south patrolling the Greenway), so they wouldn't have attacked "a house where there are lights and many people" when they had people already in Bree to do their bidding.

What I've found interesting also is the Ringwraiths orders weren't to kill/get the Ring from Frodo and take the Ring to Sauron. It appears Sauron doesn't trust anyone in possession of the Ring, not even the Ringwraiths. Their orders were to incapacitate Frodo and take him to Sauron, so Sauron could take the Ring.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

One thing to keep in mind is that, as The Hunt For the Ring tells us, the Ringwraiths were under orders to operate covertly. Not quite "never let anyone see you," but rather "do not draw attention to yourselves." Hence the absurdity of PJ having one of them arbitrarily behead some random Shire-hobbit,* just for the eevuls, or having them ride down Bree's gates and smoosh the poor keeper - at least not on that night.

We are told that on a subsequent night five Riders tore down the gates and rode through Bree like a whirlwind... but this was because they had the scent now and the quarry was afoot; moreover they now had the W-K with them, who would have had the authority to dispense with discretion at this juncture.

*PJ the B-horror director just can't help himself. See also Dead Marshes zombies, demonic Bilbo, beheading the Mouth etc etc etc.