The Balrog as the Loathly Lady from medieval literature. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

mindil · 08-16-2020, 09:59 AM

To the best of my knowledge, in real-world mythology, the sun is always male and the moon female. I don't know why Tolkien switched it, but in any case, sun-moon/female-male in Tolkien does not map onto sun-moon/male-female in anything he adopted from Greek, Roman, Christian, ancient, medieval or any other sources. You can play with it to work it out, but it's not a direct reference.

But now on to the sketch of Wickedness. It clearly has lots of eyes, but nothing else that you point to. The eyes don't even look wicked to me - they look kind and concerned. The sketch also has lots of other hidden pictures that you haven't mentioned. There are two hands with blunt fingers reaching up to the eyes - I think they are trying to help cover the eyes from seeing unpleasant things (from seeing wickedness?), but maybe they are trying to stroke the owners of those eyes to comfort them.

The right-hand arm under that hand has small fingers grasping it under its wrist - those fingers seem to be coming from a third, hidden hand. Maybe that third hand is supporting the right hand, or maybe it's trying to dislodge it from its task, or maybe it's holding onto that hand to support itself. Depending on my interpretation of Tolkien, I can argue whichever I please, but in any case, that hand is there doing something - I wonder why you didn't mention it?

The left arm has lots of little triangles in it. To me they look like smiling mouths. I'm sure they symbolize positivity. They must be related to Tolkien's belief in eucatastrophe as the ultimate outcome of everything, including any wickedness that might be associated with this sketch. But now, actually, those triangles look like articles of clothing. But we know that Tolkien was a prude, and he wouldn't have drawn those. So maybe they are smiles after all.

How about the circle on the right arm? Is it a nose? Maybe it's a heart, and it's on the right, because the male gives his heart to the female. Or it's on the left, looking out, because it's the heart that the female gives to the male? Since we aren't sure if right-left is to be judged looking toward the sketch or looking out of it, we have to leave both options open. But in any case, it's clearly a heart - except that there's a fainter circle below it. That wouldn't be the stomach. What else might Tolkien have drawn under a heart? Can't think of any acceptable bodily organ, so then what could the upper circle be? Perhaps an apple - like the one Eve gave Adam. Now we're back to Adam and Eve and Tolkien and Edith - struck gold! But that leaves the second circle undefined. There was only one apple in Eden, so the lower circle must be .... the snake! Curled up. That's how a circle becomes a snake. So there we are - all sorted.

Now Monks, how could you have missed all these very significant hidden pictures? And there are more, but really, you enjoy these things more than I do, so I'll leave you to find them yourself.

monks · 08-17-2020, 03:20 PM

More evidence here...if you've read my previous post above which explains the framework of Prediction #71 regarding Shelob being a manifestation of the Loathly Lady motif. I argue that the 7 stars of the Valacirca of the north are captured by the Enemy at the Downfall. Those 7 stars are the Remmirath in the east in Shelob's webs. The 7 stars are 7 female figures who guide the Free Peoples through the Histories. They and Shelob symbolize 'She That is Fallen' at the Downfall. Womankind. Hence 'She-lob'. The 7 stars are captured by the Enemy.
I state above that Aragorn principally, (and the Fellowship) are symbolized by The Hunter, Orion, Menelvagor. That Borgil is the Enemy and is Aldebaran. And that the Remmirath, the Pleiades are the 7 stars- one of which is Arwen, having been captured. Aragorn must rescue Arwen and restore Womankind from that fall. The Loathly Lady theme. Hence the predictions mentioned in the previous post- a few of the 29 to date on this subject -all surrounding the imagery in 'Wickedness'. I have a predictive model. Because? Tolkien's system is predictable, being based on THE TURN.

See image here of Orion, Aldebaran and the Pleides.

The Enemy (Aldebaran) stands between Aragorn (Orion) and the 7 stars -Arwen (Pleiades). Aldebaran is the red eye of the bull, in the constellation of Taurus- the same bull that appears in the hidden images of the West Gate as previously posted on here. And in that the bull also stands between the Man and the Woman. As previously stated. I also said that in the Loathly Lady 'battle of the sexes', the crescent Moon symbolizes the Enemy in the male (Melkor's discords which are manifest in the male: aka evil, the will), the Moon (Sun =female, Moon = male). The Male seeks to imprison and oppress the female.

I just came across this by chance:

But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley. [Book II, The Ring Goes South]

The lone star is Aldebaran, the Enemy. Obviously. The Huntsman's moon "put to flight all the lesser stars". Right there is the hunt theme involving the celestial bodies. The idea of the moon chasing the stars is exactly what I've stated regarding the Crescent Moon and the notion that they might be captured. And of course you see it in the pursuit of the Sun by the Moon in the description at the creation of the Sun and Moon as well. The phases of the Moon and its seasonal characteristics are used by Tolkien. That's why it was so important for him to integrate the phases of the Moon into the LoTR. Whaaaaa...? You think he just felt like going to all of that trouble because_he_liked_the_moon? lolz.

Bless you child. See my previous post for his incorporation of the battle between the celestial bodies from his earliest legendarium. That's why the crescent moons appear on either side of the West Gate in his early drafts and in the coiling arms on the columns.

For more specific evidence, -LOTS more folks- see my previous post.

Ready when you are peeps.

monks

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-19-2020, 06:46 AM

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Tolkien's code was much more straightforward, direct numerology associated with his being a seer and prophet. He put it right on the fly-leaf of The Lord of the Rings, for those that have eyes to see:

THREE rings for the elven-kings under the sky
SEVEN for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone
NINE for mortal men doomed to die
ONE for the Dark Lord on his dark throne

3-7-9-1. That of course is the reverse of 1973, and Tolkien knew from his occult studies that 1973 would be the year of his death. That's just one example; every time Tolkien references number he's pointing to a prediction. The Two Towers, of course, forecast the 9/11 attacks.

Inziladun · 08-19-2020, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Tolkien's code was much more straightforward, direct numerology associated with his being a seer and prophet. He put it right on the fly-leaf of The Lord of the Rings, for those that have eyes to see:

THREE rings for the elven-kings under the sky
SEVEN for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone
NINE for mortal men doomed to die
ONE for the Dark Lord on his dark throne

3-7-9-1. That of course is the reverse of 1973, and Tolkien knew from his occult studies that 1973 would be the year of his death. That's just one example; every time Tolkien references number he's pointing to a prediction. The Two Towers, of course, forecast the 9/11 attacks.

Clearly J.R.R.T was his time's Nostradamus. Perhaps he really had a Palantír.

mindil · 08-19-2020, 03:07 PM

No, Palantir is an acronym with vowels added for readability.
P.L.N.T.R. stands for Philologist, Lexicographer, Numerologist, Tolkien Reuel.

The message is that Tolkien himself was a Palantir - he was farsighted and could see from our world and time into Arda's world and time.

It also stands for "planter" because Tolkien planted the light of the two trees into the minds of many generations, illuminating the dark for our earth.

William Cloud Hicklin · 08-19-2020, 04:18 PM

There's yet a further level of meaning- all his life, he suffered from plantar warts.

mindil · 08-20-2020, 02:06 AM

Sorry, I disagree. He said outright that he was hobbit, just bigger. Hobbit feet can't get plantar warts.

08-16-2020, 09:59 AM	#1
mindil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 47	To the best of my knowledge, in real-world mythology, the sun is always male and the moon female. I don't know why Tolkien switched it, but in any case, sun-moon/female-male in Tolkien does not map onto sun-moon/male-female in anything he adopted from Greek, Roman, Christian, ancient, medieval or any other sources. You can play with it to work it out, but it's not a direct reference. But now on to the sketch of Wickedness. It clearly has lots of eyes, but nothing else that you point to. The eyes don't even look wicked to me - they look kind and concerned. The sketch also has lots of other hidden pictures that you haven't mentioned. There are two hands with blunt fingers reaching up to the eyes - I think they are trying to help cover the eyes from seeing unpleasant things (from seeing wickedness?), but maybe they are trying to stroke the owners of those eyes to comfort them. The right-hand arm under that hand has small fingers grasping it under its wrist - those fingers seem to be coming from a third, hidden hand. Maybe that third hand is supporting the right hand, or maybe it's trying to dislodge it from its task, or maybe it's holding onto that hand to support itself. Depending on my interpretation of Tolkien, I can argue whichever I please, but in any case, that hand is there doing something - I wonder why you didn't mention it? The left arm has lots of little triangles in it. To me they look like smiling mouths. I'm sure they symbolize positivity. They must be related to Tolkien's belief in eucatastrophe as the ultimate outcome of everything, including any wickedness that might be associated with this sketch. But now, actually, those triangles look like articles of clothing. But we know that Tolkien was a prude, and he wouldn't have drawn those. So maybe they are smiles after all. How about the circle on the right arm? Is it a nose? Maybe it's a heart, and it's on the right, because the male gives his heart to the female. Or it's on the left, looking out, because it's the heart that the female gives to the male? Since we aren't sure if right-left is to be judged looking toward the sketch or looking out of it, we have to leave both options open. But in any case, it's clearly a heart - except that there's a fainter circle below it. That wouldn't be the stomach. What else might Tolkien have drawn under a heart? Can't think of any acceptable bodily organ, so then what could the upper circle be? Perhaps an apple - like the one Eve gave Adam. Now we're back to Adam and Eve and Tolkien and Edith - struck gold! But that leaves the second circle undefined. There was only one apple in Eden, so the lower circle must be .... the snake! Curled up. That's how a circle becomes a snake. So there we are - all sorted. Now Monks, how could you have missed all these very significant hidden pictures? And there are more, but really, you enjoy these things more than I do, so I'll leave you to find them yourself. Last edited by mindil; 08-16-2020 at 10:38 AM. Reason: family friendliness

08-17-2020, 03:20 PM	#2
monks Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 35	More evidence here...if you've read my previous post above which explains the framework of Prediction #71 regarding Shelob being a manifestation of the Loathly Lady motif. I argue that the 7 stars of the Valacirca of the north are captured by the Enemy at the Downfall. Those 7 stars are the Remmirath in the east in Shelob's webs. The 7 stars are 7 female figures who guide the Free Peoples through the Histories. They and Shelob symbolize 'She That is Fallen' at the Downfall. Womankind. Hence 'She-lob'. The 7 stars are captured by the Enemy. I state above that Aragorn principally, (and the Fellowship) are symbolized by The Hunter, Orion, Menelvagor. That Borgil is the Enemy and is Aldebaran. And that the Remmirath, the Pleiades are the 7 stars- one of which is Arwen, having been captured. Aragorn must rescue Arwen and restore Womankind from that fall. The Loathly Lady theme. Hence the predictions mentioned in the previous post- a few of the 29 to date on this subject -all surrounding the imagery in 'Wickedness'. I have a predictive model. Because? Tolkien's system is predictable, being based on THE TURN. See image here of Orion, Aldebaran and the Pleides. The Enemy (Aldebaran) stands between Aragorn (Orion) and the 7 stars -Arwen (Pleiades). Aldebaran is the red eye of the bull, in the constellation of Taurus- the same bull that appears in the hidden images of the West Gate as previously posted on here. And in that the bull also stands between the Man and the Woman. As previously stated. I also said that in the Loathly Lady 'battle of the sexes', the crescent Moon symbolizes the Enemy in the male (Melkor's discords which are manifest in the male: aka evil, the will), the Moon (Sun =female, Moon = male). The Male seeks to imprison and oppress the female. I just came across this by chance: But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley. [Book II, The Ring Goes South] The lone star is Aldebaran, the Enemy. Obviously. The Huntsman's moon "put to flight all the lesser stars". Right there is the hunt theme involving the celestial bodies. The idea of the moon chasing the stars is exactly what I've stated regarding the Crescent Moon and the notion that they might be captured. And of course you see it in the pursuit of the Sun by the Moon in the description at the creation of the Sun and Moon as well. The phases of the Moon and its seasonal characteristics are used by Tolkien. *That's why it was so important for him to integrate the phases of the Moon into the LoTR.* Whaaaaa...? You think he just felt like going to all of that trouble because_he_liked_the_moon? lolz. Bless you child. See my previous post for his incorporation of the battle between the celestial bodies from his earliest legendarium. That's why the crescent moons appear on either side of the West Gate in his early drafts and in the coiling arms on the columns. For more specific evidence, -LOTS more folks- see my previous post. Ready when you are peeps. monks Last edited by monks; 08-18-2020 at 05:17 AM.

08-19-2020, 06:46 AM	#3
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	I think you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Tolkien's code was much more straightforward, direct numerology associated with his being a seer and prophet. He put it right on the fly-leaf of The Lord of the Rings, for those that have eyes to see: THREE rings for the elven-kings under the sky SEVEN for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone NINE for mortal men doomed to die ONE for the Dark Lord on his dark throne 3-7-9-1. That of course is the reverse of 1973, and Tolkien knew from his occult studies that 1973 would be the year of his death. That's just one example; every time Tolkien references number he's pointing to a prediction. The Two Towers, of course, forecast the 9/11 attacks. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

08-19-2020, 04:18 PM	#6
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	There's yet a further level of meaning- all his life, he suffered from plantar warts. __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.

08-19-2020, 03:07 PM	#5
mindil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 47	No, Palantir is an acronym with vowels added for readability. P.L.N.T.R. stands for Philologist, Lexicographer, Numerologist, Tolkien Reuel. The message is that Tolkien himself was a Palantir - he was farsighted and could see from our world and time into Arda's world and time. It also stands for "planter" because Tolkien planted the light of the two trees into the minds of many generations, illuminating the dark for our earth.

08-20-2020, 02:06 AM	#7
mindil Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 47	Sorry, I disagree. He said outright that he was hobbit, just bigger. Hobbit feet can't get plantar warts.