The Letter of the Law

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Is this where I get to push Tar-Telperiën as a candidate again?

You just got yourself a convert, sir.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

The counter argument to 'men' is that Tolkien wrote "Three Rings for the Elven-Kings under the sky" at a time when the Three were held by the Lady of Lorien, the master of the Last Homely House, and a wizard whose best claim to 'elven' is that some rural bumpkins used to think he was one. "Mortal Men" could easily include "and woMen", and it's not like anyone writing the Red Book would know.

I take my words back. Good catch. (Even though, to be sure, the original verse counted with Círdan, so...) But if Galadriel can be a King, then a "mortal Man doomed to die" can surely be a woman.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

brb, off coming up with an excuse to time-travel Artanis, Aredhel, Luthien, Haleth, Eowyn, and Belladonna Took together for some exciting adventures.

I'd dearly love to see that.

But exactly - that's the one sad counter-argument: if there had been a powerful sorceress or evil conquering warrior Númenorean lady who became a Ringwraith, her unusual qualities would likely have been mentioned somewhere.

That being said, for various reasons I find it not unlikely that some such may have existed somewhere among the Easterlings, Southrons or other peoples and would not have found her way into the historical annals, simply because these people were too far from the Númenorean sphere of interest, and/or also illiterate to begin with.

(I personally somewhat cringe at how much this fits into the trope of "the civilised people have a patriarchal society, whereas it may be perfectly common to have a female chieftain in the 'exotic' societies that are wild and primitively barbaric/wild and free and egalitarian" - depending whether you want to paint this trope positively or negatively, both of which are cringeworthy in my opinion. But let's face it, the setup of Middle-Earth sort of supports this distinction.)

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Actually, that's another one that straddles the line between 'suggested' and 'suggested against'. Did Bilbo's mother have any adventures? She's called 'remarkable' (along with her sisters), and the best The Hobbit says is "Not that Belladonna Took ever had any adventures after she became Mrs. Bungo Baggins." So... before, then? Did Gandalf lead the three Took sisters off into the Blue for mad adventures, climbing trees and visiting elves and sailing off to other shores, facing dragons and goblins and giants, rescuing princesses and hanging out with widows' sons?

I am 100% for seeing that. And certainly yes. Obviously, putting there the denotation that something did not happen after clearly implies that it happened before.

Oh! Oh!!! That reminds me of one thing that definitely belongs to this thread. Interestingly enough, again connected to the Ringwraith. Specifically, I am referring to the well-known description that upon the Witch-King's death,

Originally Posted by RotK

a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.

...which obviously implies that it was heard again in another age. (And given that the Fourth Age started just a bit over a week later, that's not saying much.)

Sidenote, given that it also refers to the wail itself, it does not refer to something such as that the WK himself would be seen in perhaps a different form, but rather that it would be pretty much the same form - or at least a form making the very same sounds. (It also seems to refer specifically to that particular wail, not to that of the Nazgul in general, so it isn't like that somebody would hear a random Xth Age new breed of wraith wailing in the same manner, but rather Witch-King in person.)

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

>_> You've not been playing Shadow of War, have you?

Can't say I am familiar with that one. I have only heard about Shadow of Mordor and I decided not to pay much attention to it back then. From a brief glance I am maybe glad that I did so.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

You just got yourself a convert, sir.

^_^ Of all my daft ideas, this and "Celeg Aithorn is the sword of Manwe" are the ones I like the most.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I'd dearly love to see that.

I did sketch out an all-woman Fellowship a while back along the same lines, though to my shame I had to tap the movies for Ranger Arwen and, of all people, Tauriel. It does showcase both how interesting Tolkien's female characters can be - and how few of them there are. (I suppose I could find a way to replace Tauriel with Ioreth of Minas Tirith, but she might be a bit much...)

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I take my words back. Good catch. (Even though, to be sure, the original verse counted with Círdan, so...) But if Galadriel can be a King, then a "mortal Man doomed to die" can surely be a woman.

Cirdan is a shipwright, Lord, and Master, and Celebrimbor was a Lord. The only King to hold any of the three was Gil-Galad.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But exactly - that's the one sad counter-argument: if there had been a powerful sorceress or evil conquering warrior Númenorean lady who became a Ringwraith, her unusual qualities would likely have been mentioned somewhere.

...

(I personally somewhat cringe at how much this fits into the trope of "the civilised people have a patriarchal society, whereas it may be perfectly common to have a female chieftain in the 'exotic' societies that are wild and primitively barbaric/wild and free and egalitarian" - depending whether you want to paint this trope positively or negatively, both of which are cringeworthy in my opinion. But let's face it, the setup of Middle-Earth sort of supports this distinction.)

Well... yeah. I think the only purely matriarchal society Tolkien describes is the Haladin under Haleth, who had her own bodyguard of amazons, and she gets pretty heavily highlighted - while also falling firmly into the "wild and primitive" trope.

That said, I believe the amazons only get a single passing mention, buried somewhere in a linguistic essay, so perhaps "they would have been mentioned" isn't necessarily true? A whole lot of women have prophetic/visionary abilities which are never mentioned explicitly, only obliquely shown (Rosie Cotton, for one!); and the one bona fide evil sorceress has her story told solely in a single "primitive" and partly-illegible outline: Queen Beruthiel. It's entirely within reason that Tolkien would have restricted a description of Nazgul #5, the Sorceress of the Last Desert to an utterly unreadable scribble on the back of an envelope.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

...which obviously implies that it was heard again in another age. (And given that the Fourth Age started just a bit over a week later, that's not saying much.)

But of course! The Nine Rings weren't destroyed, just buried under Barad-dur when it fell (along with the Ithil Stone); per "The Dead and the Undead", it's perfectly plausible that the Nazgul would be bound to their Rings even in actual death. Once they were unearthed - which I seem to recall Aragorn had no intention of doing - they could return as genuine wraiths.

Or maybe they just come back for Dagor Dagorath. I mean, Turin's going to, why not Sauron's pet Men?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Can't say I am familiar with that one. I have only heard about Shadow of Mordor and I decided not to pay much attention to it back then. From a brief glance I am maybe glad that I did so.

Shadow of Mordor is... tolerable if you accept the basic premise of 'Celebrimbor was trapped as a ghost and turned evilish'. Shadow of War - spoilers, I guess? - made Isildur and Helm Hammerhand into Nazgul. I've played the first, but won't touch the second with a bargepole.

hS

[Boromir88]

I will hopefully respond to some of the fabulous answers and discussion that has been brought up already. Now something I was going to bring up in the Man Who Bit a Fell-Beast thread, but thought it might have been too much of a tangent. I'm pleased to find that it does fit here!

I've been wondering the Steward, Boromir, was killed and died in agonizing pain by the Witch-King. Now, it's said that the Witch-King feared him:

Boromir was a great captain, and even the Witch-King feared him.~Appendix A: The Stewards

Given that we have the prophecy of the Witch-King's downfall, but there is a bit of a game of telephone going on. Because all Glorfindel says to Earnur is:

Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall.~Appendix A: Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion

The Witch-king curiously adds in his moment of Pride: "No living man may hinder me" (The Battle of Pelennor Fields).

This reveals the Witch-King feared Boromir, not only in life but in death. Glorfindel says nothing about a living man, but 500+ years after killing the warrior-Steward he feared, he's still clearly haunted by Boromir's ghost.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I did sketch out an all-woman Fellowship a while back along the same lines

I did not know you were also an art creator in such a way - but oh my, that is a splendid idea if there has ever been one! The description you provide is rather gripping and sounds like a surprisingly plausible scenario. I really like the inclusion of especially all the Hobbit ladies, each of them make pretty strong cases for their particular presence.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

though to my shame I had to tap the movies for Ranger Arwen and, of all people, Tauriel. It does showcase both how interesting Tolkien's female characters can be - and how few of them there are. (I suppose I could find a way to replace Tauriel with Ioreth of Minas Tirith, but she might be a bit much...)

It would have worked - something along the lines of Gandalf picking her up during one of his information-gathering visits to Minas Tirith, her latching onto him with her babbling and somehow causing him to think she might have a role to play (perhaps Gandalf would give some credit to her memory of the old prophecies - or maybe she would be just all too excited to see their subjects "live" that he would take her along - or maybe she would accidentally rile up some high-ups, such as by supporting Gandalf's Wizard-talk in the presence of Denethor or somesuch, and getting "kicked out", Gandalf would decide to take her along, sort of in the way he did Sam).

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Cirdan is a shipwright, Lord, and Master, and Celebrimbor was a Lord. The only King to hold any of the three was Gil-Galad.

*shrugs* Semantics indeed. I still think that "Lord" and "King" are rather interchangeable under those circumstances, but I also perceive that already that is not precise language, so I guess it really is about where one draws the line.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

It's entirely within reason that Tolkien would have restricted a description of Nazgul #5, the Sorceress of the Last Desert to an utterly unreadable scribble on the back of an envelope.

That, to be sure, is a 100% legitimate assumption.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

But of course! The Nine Rings weren't destroyed, just buried under Barad-dur when it fell (along with the Ithil Stone); per "The Dead and the Undead", it's perfectly plausible that the Nazgul would be bound to their Rings even in actual death. Once they were unearthed - which I seem to recall Aragorn had no intention of doing - they could return as genuine wraiths.

I now only skimmed through the thread, so I don't know if it was addressed there in depth, but would the Nine not have lost their power after the destruction of the One - so, regardless of whether they continued to exist or not, they would no longer have the chance to "empower" the Nazgul and give them the strength to "live" again any longer?

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Or maybe they just come back for Dagor Dagorath. I mean, Turin's going to, why not Sauron's pet Men?

That is how I always read it - but the very reason I mentioned is that it kind of sounds like it should happen sooner. Or in other words, that's the boring explanation and it is nothing new. But the formulation speaking about that particular age basically makes it sound like "and then he reappeared in the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Age".

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Shadow of Mordor is... tolerable if you accept the basic premise of 'Celebrimbor was trapped as a ghost and turned evilish'. Shadow of War - spoilers, I guess? - made Isildur and Helm Hammerhand into Nazgul. I've played the first, but won't touch the second with a bargepole.

Oh, I think I have heard the thing about Helm somewhere. *shudders* Uggh. And poor Isildur... Now I'm thinking we should be grateful that PJ did not have such an idea.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

This reveals the Witch-King feared Boromir, not only in life but in death. Glorfindel says nothing about a living man, but 500+ years after killing the warrior-Steward he feared, he's still clearly haunted by Boromir's ghost.

That's actually great!! And besides, the area of dead men fighting dead men has not been sufficiently explored, but it sounds like something fairly plausible, no?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I did sketch out an all-woman Fellowship a while back along the same lines, though to my shame I had to tap the movies for Ranger Arwen and, of all people, Tauriel. It does showcase both how interesting Tolkien's female characters can be - and how few of them there are. (I suppose I could find a way to replace Tauriel with Ioreth of Minas Tirith, but she might be a bit much...)

I like the all-female Fellowship. Tauriel's not a bad shout, she's actually not the most-annoying inclusion in The Hobbit. That goes to Alfrid, because 1. You can't make your comic relief character someone the audience actually despises. 2. They wanted a Grima-like character, and Brad Dourif is a legend of horror-films; anyone who tried to copy his character was going to pale in comparison.

Right. Anyway the all-female Fellowship. If we take the all-male Fellowship by comparsion.

-Galadriel is Gandalf
-Eowyn is Boromir (Eomer commented that Boromir looked more like the "swift sons of Eorl" than the grim men of Minas Tirith)
-Dis is Gimli
-Arwen is Aragorn
-Tauriel is Legolas

How about though, if Tauriel sticks in your craw...Celebrian? Instead of going to the Undying Lands after her capture and torture, she actually takes the role that Elladan and Elrohir fill. She forever hates orcs and feels the only way to heal is to go on these orc-killing rampages. Her decision to join the all-female Fellowship is purely motivated by revenge.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's actually great!! And besides, the area of dead men fighting dead men has not been sufficiently explored, but it sounds like something fairly plausible, no?

Thank you, definitely seems plausible.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

That said, I believe the amazons only get a single passing mention, buried somewhere in a linguistic essay, so perhaps "they would have been mentioned" isn't necessarily true? .... It's entirely within reason that Tolkien would have restricted a description of Nazgul #5, the Sorceress of the Last Desert to an utterly unreadable scribble on the back of an envelope.

Not only is this entirely plausible, but I am now trying to wrap my head around the canonical implications of "Tolkien wrote this on a scrap of paper somewhere" but it is now lost. If it fills in a gap--or replaces some established element (say, the actual spelling isn't Maidros or Maedhros but McFeänos). Is the "true" canon the unknown fact or is it the textus receptus?

But that's really a question for another thread (this, to link but one)...

[Formendacil]

So, it's taken me a couple days, but I sat down and went looking for the phrase "it is said" in the Silmarillion, to give us some fodder for this thread, and here's the start of what I found. It goes right back to the beginning:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in the Ainulindalë

And it is said by the Eldar that in water there lives yet the echo of the Music of the Ainur more than in any substance else that is in this Earth; and many of the Children of Iluvatar hearken still unsated to the voices of the Sea, and yet know not for what they listen.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor"

For they remembered the Avari that remained by the waters of their awakening, and they did not utterly forsake the Noldor in exile; and Manwe knew also that the hour of the coming of Men was drawn nigh. And it is said indeed that, even as the Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi, so now for that time they forbore for the sake of the Hildor, the Aftercomers, the younger Children of Ilúvatar.

What I noticed with a couple of them, starting with this next one, is that after the "it is said" phrase, we get "but" or "yet" followed by the next clause--the narrator himself tells us the majority opinion and qualifies it:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Return of the Noldor"

It is said indeed that Maedhros himself devised this plan, to lessen the chances of strife, and because he was very willing that the chief peril of assault should fall upon himself; and he remained for his part in friendship with the houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, and would come among them at times for common counsel. Yet he also was bound by the oath, though it slept now for a time.

Okay, the "but" here is a bit less of a contradiction of the factuality of the first statement--it isn't saying Turgon didn't name it, just that it was known in Sindarin by a different name:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Noldor in Beleriand"

But Turgon dwelt still for the most part in Nevrast, until it came to pass that at last the city was full-wrought, after two and fifty years of secrjet toil. It is said that Turgon appointed its name to be Ondolinde in the speech of the Elves of Valinor, the Rock of the Music of Water, for there were fountains upon the hill; but in the Sindarin tongue the name was changed, and it became Gondolin, the Hidden Rock.

In this case, the "but" actually introduces the "it is said"

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Noldor in Beleriand"

Now King Finrod Felagund had no wife, and Galadriel asked him why this should be; but foresight came upon Felagund as she spoke, and he said: 'An oath I too shall swear, and must be free to fulfil it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.'
But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled him; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

Here's one for Urwen. (Also following the "introduced by the yet/but" pattern):

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of Maeglin"

Yet it is said that Maeglin loved his mother better, and if Eol were abroad he would sit long beside her and listen to all that she could tell him of her kin and their deeds in Eldamar, and of the might and valour of the princes of the House of Fingolfin.

I wasn't looking for it, but I found a double-hearsay in this passage:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien in "Of the Coming of Men into the West"

Thus it was that Men called King Felagund, whom they first met of all the Eldar, Nom, that is Wisdom, in the language of that people, and after him they named his folk Nomin, the Wise. Indeed they believed at first that Felagund was one of the Valar, of whom they had heard rumour that they dwelt far in the West; and this was (some say) the cause of their journeying. But Felagund dwelt among them and taught them true knowledge, and they loved him, and took him for their lord, and were ever after loyal to the house of Finarfin.
Now the Eldar were beyond all other peoples skilled in tongues; and Felagund discovered also that he could read in the minds of Men such thoughts as they wished to reveal in speech, so that their words were easily interpreted. It is said also that these Men had long had dealings with the Dark Elves east of the mountains, and from them had learned much of their speech; and since all the languages of the Quendi were of one origin, the language of Beor and his folk resembled the Elven-tongue in many words and devices.

And that's where I ran out of copy/paste energy. There are twenty more instances of "it is said" in the published Silm (including the "Akallabêth" and "Of the Rings of Power"--I just have other things to do with my life than copying over quotations all day!

Run free with the "ah, but it could be other things than what the people said" speculation!

[Galadriel55]

I'll leave the early It Is Saids to you, and wanna add a late one. This is something that came up on a different thread, and I will summarize it here. Basically, the marriage of Tuor and Idril is special, being one of the 3 Unions, and all 3 have one of the spouses being sundered from their kin. In the other two, the immortal wife becomes mortal. The Valar explicitly tell Luthien that they cannot keep Eru's gift from Beren. But Tuor, lucky dog, gets to live eternally with Idril and is not counted among Men! The situation also raised its own questions, e.g. where are they living, if they've never returned to ME nor ever reached Valinor?

Then, someone pointed out to me that this information is based on an It Is Said:

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

In those days Tuor felt old age creep upon him, and ever a longing for the deeps of the Sea grew stronger in his heart. Therefore he built a great ship, and he named it Eärrámë, which is Sea-Wing; and with Idril Celebrindal he set sail into the sunset and the West, and came no more into any tale or song. But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

So realistically? Tuor died, or both of them died. If it wasn't from the perils of the voyage, it was of old age. Whether or not Idril reached the Houses of Mandos is a different question, but no one in ME would know the answer anyways.

I am actually rather fond of an odea that allows to reconcile Tuor's rumoured immortality and Idril's absence with the reality of the fate of Men. On their voyage westwards, they get entangled in the enchantments of the Sundering Seas. These enchantments are known, among other things, to distort time and space, to use the SciFi terminology. Tuor and Idril find themselves trapped in a bubble that is severed from the flow of time. For a backstory, say the ship crashes into a small island and they can never leave, and time literally doesn't pass for them. Then, in whatever spacewarp magic is involves in the Sundering Seas and the Straight Road separates the island from being physically accessjble from either plane of reality. Tuor and Idril indeed find themselves alive and together, suspended between worlds, out of Time, living forever without violating the Gift or needing to arrive anywhere. Not sure if they would be conscious, probably not, but they would still fulfill the legend. After all, the suspended-state-living works for Pharazon, exceot here it's accidental and sort of a good thing.

So rather than debunk an It Is Said fact, I would much rather create a story to support it. A sleeping timeless couple, suspended in time and forever in love until the end of the world will reshake the planes of reality and they will come apart to rejoin their respective races.



While looking for that paragraph, I also noticed its neighbour:

Originally Posted by ibid

And it is said that in that time Ulmo came to Valinor out of the deep waters, and spoke there to the Valar of the need of the Elves; and he called on them to forgive them, and rescue them from the overmastering might of Morgoth, and win back the Silmarils, wherein alone now bloomed the light of the Days of Bliss when the Two Trees still shone in Valinor. But Manwë moved not; and of the counsels of his heart what tale shall tell?

The wise have said that the hour was not yet come, and that only one speaking in person for the cause of both Elves and Men, pleading for pardon on their misdeeds and pity on their woes, might move the counsels of the Powers; and the oath of Fëanor perhaps even Manwë could not loose, until it found its end, and the sons of Fëanor relinquished the Silmarils, upon which they had laid their ruthless claim. For the light which lit the Silmarils the Valar themselves had made.

So first they say good stuff about Ulmo, because they like him. And then they say excuses about Earendil, because how dare they cast Manwe in a bad light. Of course he wasn't just being heartless and obstinate! Also, this is just very convenient build up to Earendil. Cirdan's and Turgon's messengers failed, Tuor failed, but Earendil will succeed!

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I am actually rather fond of an odea that allows to reconcile Tuor's rumoured immortality and Idril's absence with the reality of the fate of Men. On their voyage westwards, they get entangled in the enchantments of the Sundering Seas. These enchantments are known, among other things, to distort time and space, to use the SciFi terminology. Tuor and Idril find themselves trapped in a bubble that is severed from the flow of time. For a backstory, say the ship crashes into a small island and they can never leave, and time literally doesn't pass for them. Then, in whatever spacewarp magic is involves in the Sundering Seas and the Straight Road separates the island from being physically accessjble from either plane of reality. Tuor and Idril indeed find themselves alive and together, suspended between worlds, out of Time, living forever without violating the Gift or needing to arrive anywhere. Not sure if they would be conscious, probably not, but they would still fulfill the legend. After all, the suspended-state-living works for Pharazon, exceot here it's accidental and sort of a good thing.

So rather than debunk an It Is Said fact, I would much rather create a story to support it. A sleeping timeless couple, suspended in time and forever in love until the end of the world will reshake the planes of reality and they will come apart to rejoin their respective races.

I kind of like the idea, but it also horrifies me. Let say they are conscious and aware of their predicament. It seems like a fate akin to the one that befell Hurin. To sit and watch, but helpless to do any actual deed. Only in this case I guess they would be in total ignorance of what is happening anywhere, which I am not sure is preferable to the torment of Melkor.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I kind of like the idea, but it also horrifies me. Let say they are conscious and aware of their predicament. It seems like a fate akin to the one that befell Hurin. To sit and watch, but helpless to do any actual deed. Only in this case I guess they would be in total ignorance of what is happening anywhere, which I am not sure is preferable to the torment of Melkor.

Yeah, I think I prefer them to be in a sort of asleep-but-aware-of-each-other state, it seems the nicest. But even if they are conscious, it's still different from Hurin, who was experiencing every passing moment. If you are beyond time, how fast does time pass? How do you even experience consciousness? I don't know! Maybe the whole thing feels like a moment. Or maybe not. Maybe you don't feel the need to fill time with thought or action and just be there. Don't know!