TIG CXVII: GAME Thread:

[Thinlómien]

First off: feeling really bad about the Huin lynch, on multiple levels. I can't believe I noticed Form's death made him more likely innocent and ignored that I find that every time I ignore reason in favour of gut-feeling OR ignore gut-feeling in favour of reason I pick the wrong thing to follow. I would say, I'm sorry Huin, but since this worked in your favour last time (me ignoring your wolvish vibes because I had no actual proof you were a wolf, and you were), let's call it... even?

But banter aside, entering Day3 without having a wolf lynched is always a little demoralising, especially with having just lost our ranger. We're gonna need all the help we can get toDay.

And speaking of losing our ranger, that sucks, also because Lottie was one of the few people I was confident was innocent.

And still about the Huin lynch: like I said, I will be looking at Boro and Legate toDay. Especially the former is ringing all my alarms now that I know Huin was innocent. The way he orchestrated the Huin lynch (despite suspecting Legate more originally? Do we have a Boro-Legate duo?) then started calling everyone else wolves for voting with him rubs me as wrong as something can rub me. Also I have to confess I suck at reading Legate in ww, so I usually keep a bit of a distance to him and give him the benefit of doubt for the first few Days unless he does something super shady, because often one of us getting killed/lynched solves the dilemma for me. But since it's Day3 and we're in dire straits, I'm aware I have to start paying more attention to him.

Now onwards to toDay...

Not a fan of Morsul's plans, for reasons that I don't feel confident expressing in public.

Ghost Form! Yay! Already from the first post I can see this will be fun. Not sure I follow the dead's logic though. Call the beasts? Ie the wolves? Wolves, would you like to show yourselves?

I don't follow Morsul and Boro's logic in parsing the ghost quotes? Why do you think he's specifically talking about Huinwagon? Or about Morsul / Sally / Pitch ?

Also, G55, I'm confused, can we ask direct question of the ghost like Morsul did? I thought not?

Also Morsul!!!! Why are you voting so early!! When you just said yourself we have to think carefully toDay??? As far as I see, you haven't really spent much time toDay analysing anybody or wondering why Lottie was killed. You just want us all to follow your gut? Geez, I don't like this. Okay, possibly a wolf would not be so brazen but you're narrowing our options on a whim and I don't like that. Or maybe Sally looks like a convenient target others might get behind because she's hardly been here but she's been suspected? Red flags. (I still don't have much of an opinion on Sally, since she hasn't been around. But I see she has a posted toDay already. Good.)

I don't know. I'm immediately suspicious of anyone who's willing to dig a trench and go hard from the beginning of the Day - that's what someone who knows who are on their side and who aren't would do. As has been pointed out, toDay is likely crucial. Therefore the wolves need to direct the village to lynch one of their own. They can go hard. They probably decided last Night who they're gunning for toDay. The rest of us can't afford tunnel vision like that, we have to actually think.


edit: xed with Boro

[Thinlómien]

Can someone explain to me that since when is one of Morsul, Sally and Pitch a werewolf?

And since this seems to come from Form's posts, how would the dead know? Since we don't have a dead seer? I doubt G55 would straight up tell them who the wolves are.

Either I'm slow or there's something straight up shady going on with Boro and Morsul.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Can someone explain to me that since when is one of Morsul, Sally and Pitch a werewolf?

And since this seems to come from Form's posts, how would the dead know? Since we don't have a dead seer? I doubt G55 would straight up tell them who the wolves are.

Either I'm slow or there's something straight up shady going on with Boro and Morsul.

The information they get is basically (I just realized I use this word too much.) activities of the wolves and gifted. So the interpretation is that the dead were told one or more wolves received votes on day 1. Boro narrowed that down to myself Pitch and Sally of those two I suspect Sally

[Morsul the Dark]

My main defense against wolfdom is my early vote. A wolf can’t vote first if breaks their bandwagon power. But a vote for their own first, that scatters any plans they could have as per my last post.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

My main defense against wolfdom is my early vote. A wolf can’t vote first if breaks their bandwagon power. But a vote for their own first, that scatters any plans they could have as per my last post.

To a degree, I agree. But you could be a wolf who has take the gamble that the suspicion of Sally that was in the air yesterDay will continue toDay and by voting for her early you can keep her in the spotlight instead of your fellows. Or you could be wolves with Sally and decided to bus her in an epic way because she's under too much scrutiny. I don't know. I don't like your vote, even if you're innocent, because it's too hasty. If Sally is innocent you have just done the wolves a big favour.

Also I see you're trying to explain the thing to me, but I'm still not following. Yes Form said First Day, five people, and wargs and werewolves, but why do you think they're the people who received votes?

Anyway, I'm off to read Lottie's posts to try to determine why the wolves went for her. She voted for Huin yesterDay, so that can hardly have been the reason.

[Thinlómien]

Day 1

#6 banter post, uses leaf icon and talks about gardening:

I'm here, I'm here! I spent a lovely morning in the garden. It's time to harden off the seeds - I have some truly delightful tomatoes, artichokes, and cabbage, not to mention the wildest looking morning glory seedling! I see I missed - oh my - three people are dead?!?

Could this have been interpreted as a seer hint? With the words "I see"? But I don't know what gardening has to do with seers?

#36, #42 suspects Greenie and agrees with Kath that Morsul's tunnel vision on Huin is bizarre. Continues about the subject in the next post.

#63 does a legate-180 on Greenie. Flipflops on Morsul, mildly suspects yours truly, says doesn't want to vote for Greenie, Pitch, or Huin.

#69 wants to lynch a quiet person in theory, but not in practice since the quiet ones are Soriman, Sally, Kath and herself.

#73 defends Huin and her defense of Huin.

#77 tries to discredit Pitch's Lottie-Kath wolf duo theory.

#80 speculation about wolf-Form.

#82 continues Morsul-Huin un-wolfpack speculation.

#85 says Sally and Form are unlikely packmates, even though she doesn't seem to suspect either per se.

#95 would prefer to vote Morsul or Pitch, but goes for Greenie.

#100 puzzling out who's left to vote.

Comments: ?? if this had been a Night2 kill, I would have said the wolves thought she dreamed of innocent Huin, but it doesn't make sense because she voted Huin on Day2 which the wolves could hardly have overlooked. Otherwise she was vaguely defending Kath, but it's hard to see that as seerish. She voted for Greenie, who we know was innocent. It's notable she talks a lot about Morsul and suspects him, even though she flipflops about him a little. Could wolf-Morsul have thought she was the seer who had dreamed of him but was trying to downplay her seerishness by adding flip-floppy counter arguments?


Day 2

#112 thinks Form's death points at Sally.

#113 explains her vote, saying she suspected Greenie more than Huin.

#116 questions Morsul about his list post and questions basically everything about it (him not having a read on Legate and myself, suspecting Sally and Kath, trusting Boro and Pitch).

#118 continues pressing Morsul but concedes he sounds more like an ordo.

#123 in reply to Boro and Sally, makes jokes about never playing "normal". Could this have been read as gifted hint?

#148 tries to discredit yours truly's Sally-Lottie wolf pack theory by defending her defense of Sally on Day1. Argues with Pitch about not being packmates with Sally and Huin.

#151, #153 yells at Morsul and Sally for having tunnel vision on her.

#158 questions Pitch about his Day1 voting.

#171 top suspects Sally and Pitch, "weird vibes" from Boro, Legate and yours truly.

#197 reminder of the dead thread vote.

#205 debates between voting Sally and Huin, votes for Huin.

#213 talks about the tie system.

#226 says she would have preferred Sally or Pitch to Huin but other people left to vote didn't seem to agree, also says she didn't want to vote for Boro.

Comments: I am again confused, to be honest. The only one she says she doesn't want to vote - Boro - is also someone she gets "weird vibes" from. As for her suspicions, Morsul is notably there again, but she seems to end up leaning innocent on him, which would be weird from a seer regarding a known wolf, unless she concluded that she can't get him lynched and she was desperate to hide from Nightly attention? Also suspects Sally and Pitch, but didn't vote either, but instead Huin. You'd think that if she'd have been the seer who had dreamed of wolf-Sally, she'd have given her the third vote and hoped some living or dead would follow her lead. You'd think wolf-Sally would think that too, even though paranoid wolf Sally or Sally getting framed seems to be a running joke in this game. Not sure what to think of that. Pitch then? Lottie suspected him throughout the Day, but nobody voted for him - and I think I may have been the only other one besides Lottie who seriously entertained the idea. So a seer-Lottie could have dreamed of a wolf-Pitch and not voted for him, because as she said, there was not enough support for the idea. This makes me want to look at Pitch closer.

Comments of comments: Lottie's death points to Pitch the most, and to a lesser degree, Sally and Morsul.

Comments of comments of comments: Also very interesting that Lottie's death seems to point at the exact same trio that Boro and Morsul think the ghost posting points at.


edit: xed with everyone! I see there's a lot but Legate and I have to be at Nogrod's in 40 minutes to have some family quality time marathorning Star Wars movies so I don't have the time to reply right now. Thanks Boro for very gallantly offering to explain the ghost stuff to me, I'll see later in the evening (European time) whether it makes sense to me or whether I think you're pulling my leg.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Also, G55, I'm confused, can we ask direct question of the ghost like Morsul did? I thought not?

You can ask questions, you may not instruct him in how to answer or what to do.

Essentially, the goal is to Phantom-proof the idea and eliminate instructions like "If X is a wolf quote Gandalf, but if X is innocent quote Frodo".

Also, may as well say it now because I forgot to last evening. It was sort of agreed by lack of dissent on the Admjn thread that the Ghost role may be reevaluated after the first use and modified mid-game if needed. After toDay I will welcome feedback from all roles about the Ghost, and if the opinion sways a certain way then the next apparition may be subject to slightly different rules.

[Pitchwife]

Here and catching up. There's eight players left now, five of us and three wolves. If we mislynch again, they get a kill, it's 3:3, game over. So we really need to lynch a wolf toDay.


And we have a ghost who speaks in riddles, as befits a conjured spirit. Got to say I just love this addition to the game, and Formy is rocking the role! Which leads me to the question if we should read anything into whom among them the Dead have chosen to be their spokesperson, especially since much has been speculated about the wolves killing Formy thinking him the Seer, and how this would implicate sally.



In the light of this, sending Formy to haunt us could mean

- either the Dead agree with this reasoning (although they couldn't know for sure, the real Seer still being alive) or

- they disagree and sent him to correct us.


Can you shed any light on this question, o Formerdacil?

[Pitchwife]

A quick correction:

Originally Posted by Boro

Pitch - because he cautioned me yesterday about who I was trusting, but he himself has seemed to be pretty trusting towards me

You got it backwards. That was me cautioning myself against being too trusting towards you and sally.


Also

Originally Posted by The Ghost

Originally Posted by Not at Home
"In the Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men.

Are the Dead cautioning us not to be led astray by disputes between two loud guys, which would probably mean Boro and Legate?

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

A quick correction:

You got it backwards. That was me cautioning myself against being too trusting towards you and sally.

Ahh, I see, that makes more sense. Well I took the "this is about sally and Boro" as you were telling me not to trust sally based on previous feelings.

Originally Posted by Pitch

Also


Are the Dead cautioning us not to be led astray by disputes between two loud guys, which would probably mean Boro and Legate?

No, I don't think that is the suggestion from the Dead at all. Look at how Form went about the first message.

He quoted about the "Vision of Iluvatar" that was "brief and soon taken away." So, this would be referencing the tidbit of info given to the innocent dead by our ModGods:

Originally Posted by G55

To clarify, as there are so far no wolves on the DT, the information so far was not picked by wolves but merely by yours truly and BG. However, it will be picked by wolves when/if a wolf dies, in the sense that they will be given a choice of 2-3 infodrops of which they select the one to be posted on the DT to be known to the Inno-Dead.

Then in Form's Post 273:

Originally Posted by Form

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë
Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his left hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty.

Again referencing Iluvatar and a "new theme began" so another message. To decipher this one, as the first one, you have to look at the quotes that Form is trying to tell a story through several unconnected quotes. But all put together it contains the piece of information. To remove just 1 out and focus on that, distorts the "new theme," distorts the new message.

What that message is I'm hoping perhaps others can help, but think of it as trying to decipher the message by Form creating a story through unconnected quotes.

In the first message he quoted

"The Beginning of Days," "The First Day" "we elected and measured" So, the message was about the voting on Day 1.

Now this time, it appears to be something about another day's voting:

Originally Posted by Form

'The morning of two days ago, nigh on three days of journey! How far is the place where you parted?'

In the Lake-town we have always elected masters from among the old and wise, and have not endured the rule of mere fighting men.

I don't know if this is referring to Day 1 voting again as in "2 days ago, nigh on three." Or if he's trying to talk about 2 "phases" ago...if that makes sense? I would think if he was talking about Day 1 voting he would have chosen, the same as his first message quoting the "Beginning of Days" and "The First Day." Thus this could be something about Day 2 voting?

But I am going to need some help on this one.

Edit: crossed with Pitch and Kath

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit

"Boromir!" all the four men exclaimed.

Ghost

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by The Ghost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Many Meetings
He then pointed out and named

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Riders of Rohan
and five you have measured ere the

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Ainulindalë
before aught else was made

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rider of Rohan
day is ended! Hardy is the race of Elendil!

Ghost

I'm not sure about the interpretation of "Five you have measured" as "people who got a vote on Day 1". There were six people who got votes that Day:
- Morsul
- myself
- Hui
- Greenie
- sally
- Lottie

By eliminating Greenie as known innocent, Boro pares that down to five, but then, why not eliminate Hui and Lottie as well, who are also known innocents?

Whereas there were five people who didn't get a vote D1:
- Boro
- Kath
- Legate
- Lommy
- Sori

So there could equally be a wolf among those five.

Also Formerdacil later adds this:

Originally Posted by The Ghost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Three is Company
one of the Big People

Now I don't know whether any of the Dead have read Stephen Donaldson, but the original Pitchwife in his books is a Giant, and I talked about the five non-votees in a post yesterDay. Is that it?

[Thinlómien]

And can I just say for starters the ghost is so much fun?

So, Form confirmed Boro's interpretation of his message was correct over Pitch's? Interesting. I still don't follow Form's #276, I'm afraid. (Have I mentioned I've always sucked in riddles? Not ideal for a game like this.)

Anyway, it's something to remember that Boro favours a theory that implicates Pitch/Sally/Morsul, while Pitch favours a theory that implicates Boro / Kath / Legate / Lommy / Sori. This could come in handy if we survive toDay, because it tells what direction each of them is willing to take the lynch toDay.

Soriman is again making me go ??????

Originally Posted by Kath

In post 196 mentions she would have been worried if Lottie had reached 2 votes first - quite a swing from the earlier quite high level suspicion.

Yes, I found Lottie suspicious at first for her tunnel vision but after her lashing out and defending her innocence very much like a frustrated ordo towards the end of Day2, I changed my mind about her, and I did not want her to get lynched, especially since she was at that point tied with Sally, whom I didn't (and don't) consider particularly innocent.

Originally Posted by Kath

Comes out gunning for Boro for orchestrating the Hui lynch, I'd like an explanation of what she means by that, given by her own admission she decided Hui was innocent based on her analysis of Form and then voted Hui anyway.

You mean why did I say Boro orchestrated the Hui lynch? Because he made a big case against him and gave him the first vote, introducing him as a viable candidate when before that I think many people (myself included) had been vaguely suspicious of him but not really considering voting him (or that's my read of the situation). Boro as much as admitted having done this intentionally (or again, that's how I read it) when he said something along the lines of "see, this is how just one vote can start a bandwagon?"

And I think you are misrepresenting me a little. I didn't decide Hui was innocent based on Form's death, just that Form's death made him look better, moving him from "suspicious" to "unsure" in my mind. (And yeah I still voted for him because I was too tempted to resolve the Gordian knot of him and Boro and Legate - which sadly doesn't seem to have been resolved by Huin's death at all, in hindsight - since nobody else seemed very eager to vote those I suspected (even) more than Huin, namely you and Pitchwife.)

Speaking of this Form-Huin thing:

Originally Posted by Pitch

But how would it have occurred to Lommy that the wolves thought Form was defending a dreamed innocent (ergo making Hui look better) if she didn't know that Hui was innocent to begin with?

*raises an eyebrow* Seriously, Pitch, did you not read the rest of that post of mine or did you wilfully take this out of context? I was looking for instances where Form talked about someone's guilt or innocence in a clear way. Ergo, that the wolves' might have considered seer dreams. And my conclusion was that his clearest opinions - which still weren't very clear btw - were that he trusted Huin and mistrusted Sally. So if the wolves picked him based on what he said about other players, it was either because Huin is innocent or because Sally is a wolf. So if you are asking how could I know that Huin is innocent, why aren't you asking me how could I know that Sally is a wolf? Does not compute.

I have no idea what to think about Kath saying that suggesting her and Morsul are packmates is a "fair point". Really?

Side note: speaking of voting - let's not forget the dead can break a tie. While they don't know any better than us, we can at least trust them to have good intentions.

Originally Posted by Sally

Yeah, why is that? Perhaps because you're a furry person? My gut is only supported by Lommy's readiness to go along with lynches she herself has disagreed with if they suit her.

For the last time, I did not find Huin innocent. I wouldn't have voted him if I thought he was innocent. Yes, I found a point that could be in his favour, and then looking at the overall picture, decided to ignore that particular point. You don't have to kick me for it, I'm already doing it myself, trust me.

Originally Posted by Sally

I agree with her reasoning regarding Morsul, but again, I think he's just a misguided innocent. I think Lommy is jumping too hard to my defense, which is in itself another bit of suspicion.

???? If you are innocent, why would defending you be suspicious? This is an extremely odd thing to say, especially about a post that was rather anti-Morsul than pro-you. Idk, Sally, now that you finally are around, I'm not very impressed by what I'm seeing.

Do you guys know what would be the funniest thing ever? If the pack was Sally AND Morsul AND Pitch. Frankly, it looks fairly possible. This post of Sally's certainly made me think there could be a Sally-Morsul connection at least.


edit: xed with everyone after Legate's longer post

[Thinlómien]

Soriman, if you're innocent, you should not self-vote.

If you're a wolf, however, it sounds like a great strategy.


edit: xed with Sally