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Old 06-02-2021, 03:33 AM   #1
Huinesoron
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As a writer I love Leaf by Niggle. It perfectly captures the twin feelings that nobody properly appreciates your work (^_~) and that your work isn't any good anyway, as well as the niggling (sorry) worry that in a cosmic sense, you're just wasting your time with it all.

It also contains probably my favourite vision of Heaven - the idea that you get to see all your imaginings brought to life and perfected! I strongly suspect this is Tolkien writing his own belief in what Paradise would (or should) be; I know it's mine.

The whole story also casts something of a reflection of the Music of the Ainur. In both stories, there's an artistic creation which is interrupted and reworked during its making, which ends by being made real. And there's a definite echo between these:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf by Niggle
Some of the most beautiful - and the most characteristic, the most perfect examples of the Niggle style - were seen to have been produced in collaboration with Mr Parish: there was no other way of putting it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainulindale
"Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth!"
I'm... not sure what it says about Tolkien that he wrote about other people (Mr Parish, as in "the men of this parish" - ie, everyone) in the same way that he did the actual devil...

hS
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Old 06-05-2021, 04:02 AM   #2
Estelyn Telcontar
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Let's talk about the character of Niggle:

In the very first sentence he is called a "little" man - I assume that does not refer to his body height, but to his lack of importance in the scheme of the world. Tolkien goes on to give him slightly negative characteristics: "not very successful", "idle", and though "kind-hearted", not positively so. Continuing: "ineffectual", taking on a project that was "too large and ambitious for his skill". Later on, "very ordinary and rather silly". And of course the meaning of his name sounds a bit derogative - a person who spends too much time on insignificant details and loses sight of the whole. Do you think he thought of himself in these terms, since the character is definitely autobiographical?

Niggle's work needed "concentration", "hard, uninterrupted work", in order to get finished. He would have loved to get paid for doing just that. We know that Tolkien was kept busy with matters that he wasn't really interested in, such as correcting papers, and that illnesses in the family sometimes occupied his time.

How do you see the person Tolkien describes?
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Old 06-05-2021, 12:39 PM   #3
William Cloud Hicklin
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I think it's definitely autobiographical, and T here is harping on his admitted faults: procrastination, "niggling" over details, unplanned Big Picture, being annoyed at mundane but useful work getting in the way of the huge project only he thought had any value.
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Old 06-06-2021, 06:14 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
In the very first sentence he is called a "little" man
C.S. Lewis is known to have described Tolkien as a little man soon after their introduction. It is not lost on me that my own nickname in this group bears a marked resemblance to it.

Quote:
what do you think of this story?
I place it in a very small class of mythopoeic stories that speak deeply to me personally. They are Leaf by Niggle, Smith of Wootton Major by Tolkien, The Great Divorce by Lewis, The Golden Key, and The Gift of the Child Christ by Macdonald. There may be others. One common element to each of these, in one form or another, is "Gift." Perhaps one could go so far as to say "Grace."
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:17 AM   #5
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Niggle is I think unique in Tolkien's career in that it is the only work I can think of which is explicitly religious.
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Old 06-09-2021, 03:37 PM   #6
Estelyn Telcontar
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It certainly has an interesting take on the Catholic concept of purgatory - learning to work by the clock!
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Old 06-10-2021, 03:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin View Post
Niggle is I think unique in Tolkien's career in that it is the only work I can think of which is explicitly religious.
I first read it a long time ago before I had any inkling (heh, heh, pun not intended, but...) about Tolkien's own religious affiliation, but I remember thinking 'hm, this sounds like an obvious allegory for purgatory'." Which on top of that was very interesting given what I knew Tolkien said about allegory in the foreword to LotR and his generally negative attitude towards it.

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
It also contains probably my favourite vision of Heaven - the idea that you get to see all your imaginings brought to life and perfected! I strongly suspect this is Tolkien writing his own belief in what Paradise would (or should) be; I know it's mine.
I must confess that I am in the same boat. Also somewhere along my theology studies, I may have smuggled Tolkien into a paper we were supposed to write for one course. I don't remember the particularities, I only remember that it was quite a stretch, but in my defence, I was in my first year and I wanted to write about something I was comfortable with. It was a course with the overall theme of "work and theological ethics", and aside from some of the more obvious associations, there were various interesting niche sub-themes like "work and eschatology". And that was where I started from. I'm really sorry I can't dig it up. But it had something to do with the individual eschatology, just like in Niggle, and the ideas behind the Second Music of the Ainur (actually see below).

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Originally Posted by Huinesoron View Post
The whole story also casts something of a reflection of the Music of the Ainur. In both stories, there's an artistic creation which is interrupted and reworked during its making, which ends by being made real.
Nice catch with "Mr. Melkor Parish"!

What always seemed obvious to me about Leaf by Niggle/Music of the Ainur was the parallel reflecting what I think is truly "Tolkien's eschatology", if we can find any: the restoration of everything AND "upgrading" it using the creativity and skill of humans (and Elves).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ainulindalë
Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Ilúvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.
That is very much what happens in Leaf by Niggle, too.

The whole concept is in broad terms very close to the ages-old theological idea of apokatastasis panton, or tikkun olam in Judaism and especially Hassidic mysticism. Hassidic mysticism and kabbalah contain a lot of these elements of "sub-creators" (for instance, the whole concept of Golem, if you're aware of the legend, is an example of sub-creation par excellence). There is an idea of worlds being created or of things literally coming into life by stories being told about them. And of course all this sub-creation is a part of the eschatology, too; so the idea is that by necessity one day, all these elements of sub-creation shall somehow be vowen into the restored World-To-Be.

And if that isn't the Second Music/"Niggle's Parish", I don't know what is.
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Old 06-10-2021, 03:03 PM   #8
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This sentence from Tolkien's letters ties in nicely with Niggle's Parish:

Quote:
from letter #45 to his son Michael, written in June 1941:
"There is a place called "heaven" where the good here unfinished is completed; and where the stories unwritten, and the hopes unfulfilled, are continued."
So he had this idea, years before writing "Leaf by Niggle"!
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Old 06-13-2021, 12:34 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar View Post
It certainly has an interesting take on the Catholic concept of purgatory - learning to work by the clock!
A modern motif. I can imagine that before time keeping the theme could be the same, but with sunrise and sunset being the standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legate
given what I knew Tolkien said about allegory in the foreword to LotR and his generally negative attitude towards it.
The only other description of purgatory I know of is Dante's. Obviously, we're dealing with a short story compared to Dante's masterwork, but the differences are striking. It seems more of an evocation of Niggle's own forced and practical reform rather than an after death millions of years long purification. Personally I wouldn't want to experience either of them!

And thanks, [b]Legate[b], for re-associating - for me - the idea of subcreation with Niggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guinevere
"There is a place called "heaven" where the good here unfinished is completed; and where the stories unwritten, and the hopes unfulfilled, are continued."
For one such as I whose subcreation may never see print (or webpage), this is a great consolation.
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Old 06-13-2021, 04:11 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by littlemanpoet View Post
The only other description of purgatory I know of is Dante's. Obviously, we're dealing with a short story compared to Dante's masterwork, but the differences are striking. It seems more of an evocation of Niggle's own forced and practical reform rather than an after death millions of years long purification.
Speaking of purgatory, I'd like to mention Vane's dreams while Sleeping the Sleep in George Macdonald's Lilith, where he remembers every wrong he ever did to anybody in his life and works to make amends. I think it's interesting that his efforts include building, gardening and artistic creation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Macdonald, Lilith, Chapter XLIII
I was the eager slave of all whom I had thus or anyhow wronged. Countless services I devised to render them! For this one I would build such a house as had never grown from the ground! For that one I would train such horses as had never yet been seen in any world! For a third I would make such a garden as had never bloomed, haunted with still pools, and alive with running waters! I would write songs to make their hearts swell, and tales to make them glow! I would turn the forces of the world into such channels of invention as to make them laugh with the joy of wonder! Love possessed me! Love was my life! Love was to me, as to him that made me, all in all!
It's forty years since I read the book, but this passage has remained vivid in my memory, and although I'm no longer the Catholic, or even Christian, I was then, I still read this as a convincing vision of purgatory (indeed the only one that makes the concept palatable).


I may have more to say in the next couple of days (still refamiliarising myself with the story).
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