Considerations from The Nature of Middle-earth

[gondowe]

Hi there. Regarding this, I am going to give my opinion, that although it is closer to Aiwendil's and, I understand, Findegil's, we could have a general approach to all of them.

1 I agree with Aiwendil (and then with CT) that the new cosmology involves everything and making it more scientifically realistic is unfeasible (Alas) without a narrative development that does not exist. But there are concepts in relation to Tale of Years that should be taken into account, as the definitive change to 1: 144 instead of 1:10 (rounding) because, as Findegil said, it is established in TLotR with the concepts of yen and löa. And, in my opinion it seems that the multiples of 12 were "of the Valar and of the Eldar" from the beginning, taking into account Cuivienyarna for example. We could, of course, be ambiguous but in TLotR Tolkien it is clear and with numbers.

2 If the Awakening is in 850 then it is very difficult if not impossible to adapt the dates with which we have and the narrative. If we put it in 1050 as in AAm, perhaps everything could be better adapted by transposing the difference (eg VY {854} [1054] About the time the 12th generation of Quendi first appeared, ... and so on) to be able to include the date of birth of I, F and E and other data of interest. The 1: 144 ratio would only make us all Elves much older than the other concept. But, yes, we would have to forget about some recurring things in NoME such as the aforementioned birth of Galadriel 20 years before entering Beleriand and the birth of Maeglin in 120 without narrative development.
Perhaps Finduilas's birth could be plausible, but when would Orodreth and Angrod his father have been born?
It is true that these considerations led to the changes in the Tale of Years of the Second and Third Ages in the second edition of TLotR but without consequences in its narrative. Unfortunately we do not have that development here.

3 Apart from the fact that how the texts are presented in NoME does not help to understand them well (how I miss CT !!!!), all the Time and Aging material is developed to "explain" how the March etc, could be carried out and I think that would be out of place (although I could be wrong) and ambiguity would be the best solution.

4 I say the same as in point 3.

In any case I repeat the same thing that I said in the other thread to raise a modified Yenonotie (for example yours Arcus which is in English) and to be able to see among all if it is feasible. That could help us in turn to decide how to deal with the inclusion of text within the narrative.

As I already said elsewhere there are also important (at least for me) decisions to discuss, such as including Imin, Tata and Enel within the ambassadors as shown in one of Tolkien's options. Which could preserve the narration they make to Manwë of the Awakening.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

I believe that this subforum considers Indis as the niece of Ingwe, as per 'The Shibboleth'.

However, there is a note (note 53) to the Shibboleth, that, given the new information in the Nature of Middle-earth, is particularly interesting:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth.

Which indicates that, at least according to this note, Indis is supposed to be a descendant of Ingwe, and not just related to him.

After that, CT follows:

As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.

However, given the fact that in the NoME, Indis is the daughter of Ingwe (and Ilwen) and a sister of Ingwion, this suggests to me that Tolkien might have reverted back to this (or, at any rate, a similar) version.

Moreover, I believe that it makes more (poetic) sense for Indis (and her many descendants) to actually be descended from Ingwe himself - but that's just my personal preference.

I think this might just be enough to at least reconsider the subject.

[Arvegil145]

There is also another curious statement from PE 17 that I'll have to dig up, which bears on the matter.

[Arvegil145]

I think we should make a compendium of all the relevant information found in the NoME, and post all of it here - quotes and all.

And afterwards we should use these quotes accordingly, and apply them to whatever TNS texts that they refer to.

[ArcusCalion]

Please do! There were a lot of interesting details and narrative expansions on the Coming of the Elves to Valinor which were the result of his changing date calculations which would be beneficial to take up into the text of that chapter in some form so as to not lose them, even if the final dating schema need not be definitively decided by this project.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Please do! There were a lot of interesting details and narrative expansions on the Coming of the Elves to Valinor which were the result of his changing date calculations which would be beneficial to take up into the text of that chapter in some form so as to not lose them, even if the final dating schema need not be definitively decided by this project.

I mean - I'm probably not the only person here in possession of the NoME: so if you or anyone else for that matter is willing to divulge passages relevant to TNS, be my guest!

It couldn't hurt if I or someone else compiled all the NoME quotes being used at this time in their respective threads in one place, either.

[Arvegil145]

For example, there's this quote that I posted on "The Stewards" thread, which didn't get a lot of traction - - -

"Here might be a good place to suggest an addition from The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Beards', p. 188":

The matter of Denethor and his sons is not so clear. But I explained this by referring to Gandalf’s remarks concerning Denethor: that “by some chance” the Númenórean was nearly “true” in him – meaning that by some event in Denethor’s ancestry which Gandalf had not investigated, he had this mark of ultimately “royal” descent. This “chance”, I said, was to be seen in the fact that Húrin the First Steward (from whom Denethor was directly descended) must have been a kinsman of King Minardil (see L.R. III 319, 332, 333) sc. of ultimately royal descent, though not near enough in kinship for him or his descendants to claim the throne. I did not but could have noted the following points. The Kings of Gondor had no doubt had “stewards” from an early time, but these were only minor officials, charged with supervision of the King’s halls, houses, and lands. But the appointment of Húrin of Emyn Arnen, a man of high Númenórean race, was different. He was evidently the chief officer under the crown, prime counsellor of the King, and at appointment endowed with the right to assume vice-regal status, and assist in determining the choice of heir to the throne, if this became vacant in his time. These functions all of his descendants inherited. It may also be noted that they had Quenya names, which had long been a privilege only of those of proved royal descent.