"Canonicity II": Has Yours Changed?

[Boromir88]

I'm returning to this thread because yesterday an article about "What Do Orcs Eat Explained" popped up on my Google homepage. After reading it, it jogged some thoughts about this thread and I hope to read others' input.

https://gamerant.com/lotr-what-orcs-eat-explained/

I found the article itself, to put it kindly, a mess. The author appears to have a general knowledge of the books (probably read them at least once), but it was confusing to me.

The main problem (and this is done quite frequently) I can't tell whether this was written to be for movie canon or book canon, because the writer mixes both types together in explaining their point. If It's meant to explain what orcs eat in the movies, I think there's some leaps that are too far, but that would be less problematic. Since we do get the comedic "looks like meat's back on the menu" line. But the mixing of movie canon and book canon, confuses me too much and I can't tell if the author is attempting to explain what Jackson's orcs eat, or what Tolkien's orcs did.

And this:

However, the lands around are said to be fiery and desolate, and Boromir, the captain of Gondor, describes ‘the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume’ at the Council of Rivendell, so the likelihood that the orcs eat things that come from the earth like fruit or vegetables is highly improbable...

However, the gruesome truth is that what the orcs are more likely to be eating is the slaves themselves. It is well known that they greatly desire the taste of man-flesh. It is very credible that the slaves who are being shipped up from the south are actually what is sustaining the vast hordes of Sauron’s army.

While that's certainly the case for the part Frodo and Sam journey through, the author forgot, or omitted, Tolkien explicitly writes the land around Lake Nurnen sustains Sauron's armies.

I'd be interested to hear more input about the article itself, particularly the claim "It's well known they [Orcs] greatly desire man-flesh." I know Tolkien uses cannibalism as one of the most vile and lowly falls someone can endure. (Grima is accused of eating Lotho, as an example). And while I think it's generally accepted orcs are cannibalistic, I don't recall Tolkien ever mentioning that it was "greatly desired" or frequently done to the extent this article argues. That is Sauron brings in slaves for his orcs to dine on man-flesh.

I'd also be interested in general thoughts about movie-canon and book-canon being mixed together. This definitely isn't the first writer to do it, and certainly won't be the last (there are countless internet self-proclaimed "Tolkien experts" doing this since the movies came out). Do we get to a point where the movie canon takes over the book canon as more fans combine the 2 types together?

[Morthoron]

Everyone knows that the preferred Orkish hors d'oeuvre is... finger food.

[Galadriel55]

X-ed with Morth:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Everyone knows that the preferred Orkish hors d'oeuvre is... finger food.

Indeed. ^.^

Also, there is this lovely piece describing the different culinary habits of Middle-earth.

[Galadriel55]

Orcs might not till fields but they are more than capable of raiding Men who do. And there is livestock too - raided, or occasionally wild animals hunted down - I imagine the Orcs ate a lot of jerky. And the more organized Orc troops - Sauron's armies, Saruman's lot - have masters that find ways to supply the provender: Nurnen, as you said, and probably Dunland as Saruman's supplier of what cannot be grown in the remnants of his gardens. As for the slaves making up a significant portion of the Orcs' diet - I'm not sure how that argument even makes sense. How is it more efficient to keep shipping up batches of slaves to feed your army than to raise livestock for the purpose? In what way is that a more sustainable long-term strategy?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'd also be interested in general thoughts about movie-canon and book-canon being mixed together. This definitely isn't the first writer to do it, and certainly won't be the last (there are countless internet self-proclaimed "Tolkien experts" doing this since the movies came out). Do we get to a point where the movie canon takes over the book canon as more fans combine the 2 types together?

Sadly, at a glance, this article seems to be of the type where it works predominantly with movie-lore but uses chunks of books and even Enc of Arda (good resource in general but not the way it is used here) whenever it suits the author. Rather than it becoming a blend, I would say it's movie-canon which just makes use of the other canon as it sees fit, to bulk up its credibility. It's sort of like the age-old argument of "it's in the appendices". The answer, of course, is no it's not, but you want your theory to be true and so you mix and match contextless snippets to suit your purpose, because you don't want to admit that your theory is basically head canon.

But for the more general question - I think that we all tend to blend the book and movie lore to some extent, though it's a large spectrum. There is always something - some scene, some costume or actor's appearance, some line, some fact that sticks out more to you and you might not even be sure where it came from. For instance, Gandalf's famous "You shall not pass!" might not ring any discrepancy bells to book-readers, though his actual book line is "you cannot pass". Some degree of blending is inevitable. But I dislike it when people purposefully turn from one canon to the other completely ignoring the context of both to scavenge for arguments for their desired theory.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

However, the gruesome truth is that what the orcs are more likely to be eating is the slaves themselves. It is well known that they greatly desire the taste of man-flesh. It is very credible that the slaves who are being shipped up from the south are actually what is sustaining the vast hordes of Sauron’s army.

The subject of Orcish cannibalism seems, in the books at least, to be fairly taboo to them.
There is evidence though that they don't stick at eating Men.

When Uglúk bragged about Saruman feeding his orcs with "man's flesh" (which I would think was likely obtained from either willing or unwilling workers or slaves from Dunland).

Grishnákh rejoins with:

It's orc-flesh they eat, I'll warrant.

TTT The Uruk-Hai

Which elicits yells and drawn swords, indicating it was considered an insult.

Later, when Shagrat and Snaga argue about Snaga leaving to bear news, Shagrat says:

'You must go, or I'll eat you.'

ROTK The Tower of Cirith Ungol

Since he'd already threatened Snaga with other things, though, I'm inclined to not take that one seriously.

That said, I don't think they'd hesitate as much as Men would to eat one of their dead, if it was down to that, or starving.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

How would orcs know what a "menu" is?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

How would orcs know what a "menu" is?

Isn't that of the series of questions about freight trains in the Shire?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

How would orcs know what a "menu" is?

Well, it is a French word. And orcs by nature were Francophiles.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Well, it is a French word. And orcs by nature were Francophiles.

Oui, the Orcs loved the French - they always taste so magnifique!

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Oui, the Orcs loved the French - they always taste so magnifique!

Oui. The Orcs liked to grill them till toasty brown. Hence, French fries.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Uh oh.