New Tolkien coming!

[zionius]

Originally Posted by James the Just

Thank you.
The fact that he used "Oxford University Pocket Diary, 1941-2" is very interesting. You wouldn't have a spare copy, would you?
Is there a chance you might know what kind of maps of Europe he may have used? I'm thinking of something that the maps of Middle-earth might be based on; whether merely a subconscious influence to an outright tracing.

No idea. The only page I know of that diary is the page shown in Maker item 87.

And today I note he might have used another source for his moon rise and fall time (because the 1941-2 diary only shows sun rise and fall time, plus moon phases). That's Marquette MSS-4/2/29/18a shown in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Fig.189 ( https://twitter.com/zionius/status/1486565751788310530) It says "based on Moon-hours(?) May 6-15 1944". The date exactly matches Letters no.69 on May 14 1944, where he said he spent hours trying to fix moonrise/set time.
However, the moon rise and fall time recorded in that manuscript doesn't fit the actual time in May 6-15 1944 at all. So I still don't know how he got those numbers.

[James the Just]

I spent a little time trying to solve that mystery. Take a close look at the faintly printed numbers. These match the rise and set times in Oxford from May 6-15 if you subtract exactly 4 hours. Then it appears that a 12:37 time was changed to exactly midnight along with all the other numbers being adjusted by 37 minutes as well. Near the end he seems to make some mistakes in the ordering.
The difference in time between moonrise and moonset varies by latitude so you can be sure that he got his information from a source that calculated it for someplace near Oxford's. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich? London?

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/uk/...th=5&year=1944

When looking at these numbers keep in mind they might be using double summer time because of the war effort. So initially subtract 6 hours instead of 4.

[zionius]

Originally Posted by James the Just

I spent a little time trying to solve that mystery. Take a close look at the faintly printed numbers. These match the rise and set times in Oxford from May 6-15 if you subtract exactly 4 hours. Then it appears that a 12:37 time was changed to exactly midnight along with all the other numbers being adjusted by 37 minutes as well. Near the end he seems to make some mistakes in the ordering.
The difference in time between moonrise and moonset varies by latitude so you can be sure that he got his information from a source that calculated it for someplace near Oxford's. The Royal Observatory at Greenwich? London?

https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/uk/...th=5&year=1944

When looking at these numbers keep in mind they might be using double summer time because of the war effort. So initially subtract 6 hours instead of 4.

Amazing discovery! I think the time difference between the pencil numbers and actual moonrise & set time is 6 hours. Such as May 11 0:07-8:40 > 6:11-2:41, May 12 1:11-9:31 > 7:11-3:37, etc. The timezone for the date on timeanddate.com seems to be UTC+1, so it's normal daylight saving time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by zionius

No idea. The only page I know of that diary is the page shown in Maker item 87.

And today I note he might have used another source for his moon rise and fall time (because the 1941-2 diary only shows sun rise and fall time, plus moon phases). That's Marquette MSS-4/2/29/18a shown in Tolkien: Voyage en Terre du Milieu Fig.189 ( https://twitter.com/zionius/status/1486565751788310530) It says "based on Moon-hours(?) May 6-15 1944". The date exactly matches Letters no.69 on May 14 1944, where he said he spent hours trying to fix moonrise/set time.
However, the moon rise and fall time recorded in that manuscript doesn't fit the actual time in May 6-15 1944 at all. So I still don't know how he got those numbers.

What's interesting about those slips (there are 3 of them) is that they represent the backs of "City of Oxford Air Raid Precautions Warden's Report Forms"- and in his letter to Christopher he mentions having sat up until 1 am on duty. So I can well imagine he was sorting out his moonrises while sitting, bored to death, in that little sandbagged bunker.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

What's interesting about those slips (there are 3 of them) is that they represent the backs of "City of Oxford Air Raid Precautions Warden's Report Forms"- and in his letter to Christopher he mentions having sat up until 1 am on duty. So I can well imagine he was sorting out his moonrises while sitting, bored to death, in that little sandbagged bunker.

It's fascinating to think that he was creating such entrancing works while doing mundane tasks.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On the Project Muse website, where you can pre-order the e-version (available in ca. 2 weeks), and read brief excerpts:

https://muse.jhu.edu/issue/48264

Hard copies from Duke University Press/WVUP should follow in September https://wvupjournals.dukeupress.edu/tolkien-studies

It must be pointed out that it comes as part of an annual subscription which also includes the regular volume of TS, to be published in a few months. Unfortunately, that's rather more costly than I would like (60 USD).

[Faramir Jones]

Congratulations, William Cloud Hicklin, on your work finally appearing!

As Inziladun said, it's interesting that the Professor was sorting out much of the chronology while 'doing his bit' to protect Oxford during the Second World War:

https://museumofoxford.org/oxford-at...e-20th-century

https://www.oxford-royale.com/articl...ond-world-war/

[gondowe]

William Cloud Hicklin. Purchased. Congratulations.Excellent work. Thank you very much for your analisys and showing more material from the Professor.

Greetings.

[zionius]

Congratulations, amazing work! So many mysteries are finally solved.
I have a few tiny questions about the transcription part:

The time format is inconsistent, sometimes converted to American style (eg. 3:30) and sometimes not. The MS always used UK style (3.30).
What's the meaning of the multiple asterisks in S3?
p76 what's the meaning of the three left quotation marks?
p82 "17 21". It seems "17" should be crossed out.

Also, I find images of 5 pages of MSS 4/2/18 (pages 3,6,8,9,10), and compared them with your reading:
p44 On the bottom of "17 Tu." cell something was deleted, is it possible to decipher that? Is the deleted word on "18" cell really "LQ"? The MS doesn't look like so to me. (Of course the image I have is very blur so I could probably be wrong) Also, I think Tolkien later rejected moving the boxed cell on Jan 18 to Jan 17, by adding bars on the arrow. So it fixes the inconsistency discussed in footnote 53. (RC 360 also says this event is Jan 18)
p54 Is it possible to decipher the deleted words after "At 8 a.m."?
p64 Missing the full stop at the end of "They camp 20 miles or so on way".
p64 "about 35 m. p. day.[89]" p65 "89. 36 miles per day: see note 99.". It should be both "35".
p66 "and camps 30 miles on way." seems to be "and camps 30 miles east on way." in the MS, which is also the reading in RC 542.
p74 The "F. 16" cell has a deleted "LQ" unmentioned in transcription. Is that connected with the rejected LQ on p44?
p117 "with the moonrise and set times adjusted by 30 minutes". As James the Just said in this thread, I think the adjustment is 37 minutes, or approximately 40m/0.5h. But it can't be approximated to 30m.

Update: I compared the reading in Chronology (C) with the quotes in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion (3rd ed., RC), and note several tiny differences. Without (or even with) the images it's hard to say which one is correct. Here are them (I have ignored editorial differences such as battlefield/battle field):
RC194: "Glorfindel set out from Rivendell on 9 October." C36 says it's Oct 10, according to footnote 32 Tolkien mistakenly marked it as Oct 9 and then corrected.
RC348: "They pass Gate of Argonath and come to Lake Hithoel (1.30 pm)". C52: "They pass Gate of Argonath and come to Lake Nen Hithoel (1:30 p.m)".
RC360: "Sarn Gebir". C46: "Sarngebir".
RC361: February 23 "The Orcs dismayed, but Grishnákh crosses Anduin and daringly pushes down west shore in pursuit. He believes Coy. is making for Minas Tirith." C53 says this entry was moved to February 24.
RC379: "then need long rest...they can trot ?from 6 mph for about 50 ?miles." C57: "then need a long rest...they can run [?for] 6 mph for about 50 miles."
RC410: "Wormtongue flies to Isengard". C60: "Wormtongue flees to Isengard."
RC455: "Slagmounds". C62: "Slag-mound".
RC484: "see last glimpse of sun". C66: "see last gleam of sun".
RC507: "March 5: 11.30 leaves Dolbaran". C138: "March 5 11.20 leaves Dolbaran"
RC508: "ride 69 miles". C138: "ride 68 miles".
RC508: "Pippin sees moon-rise at 9 pm and". C138: "Pippin sees moon-rise at 9 pm [illeg]".
RC508: ", 176 miles from Edoras". C138 says this sentence is rejected.
RC531: "According to Scheme, on 6 March they left Helm's Deep at about 4.00 p.m.,". C64 says it's "1 pm".
RC538: "slowly by hidden path in lower mountains." C64: "steadily by hidden paths in the mountains,".
RC542: "30 miles east on way". C66 "30 miles on way".
RC587: " reaching Calembel on Ciril.". C66: ". Reaches Calembel on Ciril.".
RC620: "Ring destroyed". C78: "Ring is destroyed".
RC639: "July [10>] 18: Éomer returns from Rohan with picked body of Riders.". C82: "July [10>18>] 17 Éomer returns from Rohan with picked body of Riders.", and footnote 130 says the change 18>17 conflicts the text and Appendix B.
RC653: "Scheme notes that the distance from Weathertop to Bree is ninety-five miles." I can't find this info in C.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Zionius, thank you for such a detailed reading! It's very nice to know people are paying attention.

I'll try to address your points in order

1) the "quotation marks" on p. 76 are ditto marks; Tolkien indicating a twice-repeated entry.
2) P. 80: The transcription is correct; in this instance T neglected to cross out 17.
3) p. 44 Tu. 17- two(?) words in faint pencil which have been irrecoverably covered up by the ink. The first might just possibly be "LQ," but that's really a guess. On the 18th it really did say "LQ" before being struck out.
4) p.54 "Is it possible to decipher the deleted words..."- theoretically it might be possible, but it has proved impossible for me!
5) p.64 That is one of a few missing full stops I corrected on the proofs but which the printers were disinclined to fix at the eleventh hour
6) p.64 - 35/36 mpd: that is correct. Here T wrote 35, but in the note referenced in Note 99 it is 36.
7) p.66 Mea culpa! I somehow left out the "east," will have to put out an errata list!
8) p.74 The erroneous "LQ" had been in my original 'diplomatic' transcription, but was among an appreciable number of unimportant errors on Tolkien's part I chose to omit in the published version
9) p. 117 Yes, I ballparked the number, and 40 minutes would have been a somewhat better approximation; I didn't think it especially important in an off-topic footnote. Probably should have just said 37. Another one for the errata list!

TBC

[William Cloud Hicklin]

p. 36 Glorfindel Oct 9/10. I am pretty sure I have it correct here, although it is easy to see how H&S could have interpreted the manuscript as associating the Glorfindel line with the 9th.

p.46 Sarngebir/Sarn Gebir. As the note observes, Tolkien here reverted to the older form. H&S regularized it in their transcription but the original in this spot is one word.

p. 52: "Lake Hithoel" H&S simply made a mistake here; it's definitely Lake Nen Hithoel.

p.53: Moved to the 24th- maybe. The entry is circled in pencil, with a smudge at the bottom which might be read as a directional arrow, but I didn't think it clear enough to include.

Several of the other contested readings are functions of the fact that Tolkien's handwriting was always small and often horrible, and there is enough deduction and educated guess-work involved that two different readers will inevitably arrive at two different specific words.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

p. 138: It's 11.20, almost definitely. It's possible to read the digit as a 3, but I'm pretty sure it's a 2.

68 vs 69 miles: Again, 9 is possible but I'm pretty sure it's an 8. The "69" may be a backreading from Gandalf's Ride, but the original entry here necessarily predates that.

"Gandalf halts 176 miles from Edoras"- this is a case where I silently repaired a minor JRRT error. He only actually struck through "Gandalf halts," but it is evident that the next line "176 miles from Edoras" was also rejected, since the next sentence contradicts it (and 192 accords with Gandalf's Ride). This may have overstepped my (self-imposed) editorial bounds, but I felt two contradictory sentences back to back would confuse the reader

1 pm/4 pm: The entry originally had "10 a.m.," which Tolkien crossed out, writing 1 pm above. I have no idea where H&S got 4.

p.62 Slag-mound. It's definitely singular, H&S must have added the S to regularize it to the published text. The hyphen is not so definite- it might just be a leading serif to the M, but ordinarily when Tolkien did that (he didn't always), the serif is well above the line and curved. T was highly variable in his use of hyphenated words (e.g. hog-back vs hogback; Zirak-zigil vs Zirakzigil), but on balance I think he used a hyphen here.


p.82 Eomer and his picked body. Now, that's interesting. T definitely wrote in 17 above 18 (which has a very bold cross-stroke or crossout). However, a faint penciled line might tie the 17 to a new moon symbol, written beside the original 17 later changed to 22 (Theoden's cortege). Therefore you may be right (and my Note 130 an absurdity)

p.78 "Ring is destroyed." That is correct, although the "is" is very indistinct and tangled up with the end of "Ring."

[zionius]

Originally Posted by zionius

RC507: "March 5: 11.30 leaves Dolbaran". C138: "March 5 11.20 leaves Dolbaran"
RC508: ", 176 miles from Edoras". C66 says this sentence is rejected.

After a study of the materials, now I think Reader's Companion is correct in these two readings.

In S3 March 6 entry, Gandalf rides "139 miles between 11.30 p.m on 5 Mar. and [7>] 7.30 a.m", the time and distance would exactly match MSS 4/2/17/14a, if one accepts the "11.30" reading:

5 Mar 11.20[?30] leaves Dolbaran
6 Mar 7.30 sights Edoras having ridden (with brief rest) at 16 mph. 136 miles. Rides on to Edoras (139 mi)

And the correct reading of S3 March 8 entry should be "Errand-riders of Gondor pass, [at] 176 miles from Edoras." (Tolkien emended the period after "pass" to comma when he deleted "Gandalf halts".) This is actually directly from MSS 4/2/17/14a:

8 Mar mid > 2 am 32 160
4 > 6 am 32 192

Episode of moon must be therefore in early hours of 8[March] (5 a.m.) and the errand-riders would then be about 176 miles out from Gondor which they should reach [i.e. reach Dunharrow] by dark next day.

Tolkien (or H&S) made a mistake in "176 miles out from Gondor", which should be "176 miles to Edoras" or something similar (your article doesn't contain this sentence from 4/2/17, and the original image is not released, so I am unsure of the exact intended reading). At 4 am Gandalf was 160 miles from Edoras, and 6 am he was at 192 miles, so at 5 am he was 176 miles from Edoras, and 118 miles from Minas Tirith. This is the intended time and place where they met the errand-riders. (If one accepts the meeting place to be "176 miles out from Gondor", then the meeting time would be 9pm in the previous night, which happens to be the time Pippin sees moon in the previous chronology.)

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien (or H&S) made a mistake in "176 miles out from Gondor", which should be "176 miles to Edoras" or something similar

Concur. The document reads very clearly "Gondor" not "Edoras," which can only be a slip in what was a very hastily jotted note. Since the subject is "Errand-riders" and he used the preposition "out," the natural reference grammatically would be to distance from origin, although this plainly was not what he really meant.

In S3 March 6 entry, Gandalf rides "139 miles between 11.30 p.m on 5 Mar. and [7>] 7.30 a.m", the time and distance would exactly match MSS 4/2/17/14a, if one accepts the "11.30" reading:

Don't concur. MSS 4/2/17/14a ("Gandalf's Ride") unmistakably reads "11.20:"*

March
5 11.20 Leaves Dolbaran

I don't think the ten minutes mattered a great deal to the T/D calculation, but it does seem to have been important that Gandalf with Pippin not dawdle after the Nazgul showed!

Remember that the March 6 entry, on Page 8 of MSS 4/2/18, was written before "Gandalf's Ride," in accordance with the old timeline. He saw no need to emend the entry because the leg from Dol Baran to Edoras didn't require changing, and so evidently he omitted his small ten minute adjustment.

*One can compare the "11.20" to the "7.30" immediately below; the 2 cannot be a 3