How We Read Rings of Power

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Bêthberry,
I feel bound to play devil's advocate for a bit and point out that if the question is women's agency, then putting a weapon in a character's hand is just one way of showing agency, and not even a particularly imaginative one. For example, Lúthien is as active and self-determined a character as they come and certainly did more to ensure the success of the quest for the silmaril than Beren accomplished himself, but she managed all that without using a physical weapon. It seems to me many critics of warrior-Galadriel (certainly those I've seen posting on the Downs) would have been fine with a more Lúthien-like Galadriel using magic instead of a sword - which would also have been truer to what we read about her in LotR and the Silmarillion.

Thanks for chiming in, Pitch. And I agree that a sword is just one way of showing agency. But ...

First, in the interests of full disclosure, let me say I am not particularly a fan of the elves. I didn't like their condescending assumption of their superiority or privilege in LotR, as if there were a hierarchy of peoples and they were/are at the top. And while I like the hobbits, I'm not especially keen on their parochialism or fearfulness of what's outside The Shire (except for our intrepid four). It was the dwarves in LotR who gained my sympathy, perhaps because I tend to look towards those who are marginalised in some way. So I'm not one to have really great admiration for Galadriel. And reading in HoMe or the Silm does not do much to improve my view of elves. They had their chance and essentially blew it and were/are as culpable of error and mistakes as any other of the peoples of the Legendarium.

That said (and take away my Lembas if you want and send me to the corner), I think there is a lot of room to show how a younger Galadriel behaved or misbehaved before she found some equanimity or serene wisdom. I think Tolkien too was conflicted about how to write Galadriel into the Silm after LotR. So I don't object to seeing swordsmanship being used to demonstrate her physical prowess and expect to see growth in her character. I also recall Tolkien's effort to explain away magic and try to explain the special effects of the elves as some kind of art which we readers cannot appreciate or yet see. I also see her in this Age as something equivalent to an angsty adolescent who isn't sure how to express herself in anything other than a rebellious attitude or stubborn self-will. So I am expecting to see her "grow out of" relying on kung fu fighting. Maybe I have greater expectations than I should of this series or maybe I am just too willing not have too strong expectations of what I want to see in her. And I remember Jael and Sisera in the Bible or Judith and Holofernes as well. We do see the woman healer beheading an orc.

To be clear, I don't think presenting Galadriel as a swordswoman was a stellar decision on the makers' part - it's a rather lazy visual shorthand for agency, and it seems like they felt they needed to have their own Brienne to keep up with Game of Thrones; but it doesn't bother me, and I think there are worse problems with RoP's writing of Galadriel - like, what in the name of diplomacy did she think she was going to accomplish by being all haughty and lick my boots (oh wait I'm barefoot) with Míriel? Shouldn't Finrod's sister have been a little more sympathetic towards mortals?

Another disclosure: I haven't watched Game of Thrones nor read Martin's books either. I just couldn't get past the third chapter of the first book, so I'm missing that context. And I agree her behaviour with Miriel seems wrong, seems destined to lead to trouble. But then, that could just be the arrogant elf aspect of her character and something she will learn is inappropriate. On the other hand, it could just be bad characterisation, bad writing.

I guess I am just willing to sit back and see what plays out rather than have any high expectations of the character. But I do object to people mixing up their ideology with Tolkien's art and calling that Tolkien's canonical statement, which you have neatly sidestepped.

[Michael Murry]

I finally found a way to watch and listen to this Amazon television thing without having to pay Jeff Bezos any of my few and hard-earned pennies. I tuned in to the DELETED BY ADMIN channel and found several uploaded episodes. The ones in English are marked "restricted," as expected. However, I discovered some dubbed in other languages, like Hindi. I took a few courses in Sanskrit in graduate school but I never followed up on that, and I don't speak Hindi, but "Galadriel" appears to sound the same in many languages. So I got the gist of the opening scene in Episode One without the need for any written subtitles which would have required of me an ability to read. Now a complete illiterate (like millions of television gawkers worldwide) I just look at moving visual images and listen to musical accompaniment and wait for something that makes sense to happen in my brain.

With the above in mind, I picked up on the following observation from our thread commentary:

Bêthberry: "I think there is a lot of room to show how a younger Galadriel behaved or misbehaved before she found some equanimity or serene wisdom."

The opening scene of Episode 1 showed a young blond girl having problems with other kids who threw rocks at, and eventually sank, her origami boat floating downstream, whereupon she attacked the responsible culprit and proceeded to punch him out until some apparently male figure with very short hair appeared on scene. "He" called her name -- the only word I could understand -- and interrupted the beating.

I hit the "pause" button and stopped viewing at this time because something recognizable happened in my brain. I found that the opening of this video:

[DELETED BY ADMIN]

Reminded me of the opening scene of another movie I have seen many times over the years:

[DELETED BY ADMIN]

I then skipped ahead to the end of this first episode because others had mentioned a streaking meteor flashing overhead, with a curly haired, furry footed (apparently) female character checking out the crash site and seeing a semi-naked figure curled up in the fetal position at the bottom of a flaming hole. Someone else said that this reminded them of "Starman," and I agree. However I also thought of "Superman," and "The Blob," among other movies that have exploited this trope.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the "spoilers." These will help me to select scenes and put names to the figures I see "doing stuff" while the background music plays and they utter inchoate noises at each other. Whether that helps me make sense of these broadcasts remains presently unclear . . .

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

First, in the interests of full disclosure, let me say I am not particularly a fan of the elves. I didn't like their condescending assumption of their superiority or privilege in LotR, as if there were a hierarchy of peoples and they were/are at the top. And while I like the hobbits, I'm not especially keen on their parochialism or fearfulness of what's outside The Shire (except for our intrepid four). It was the dwarves in LotR who gained my sympathy, perhaps because I tend to look towards those who are marginalised in some way. So I'm not one to have really great admiration for Galadriel. And reading in HoMe or the Silm does not do much to improve my view of elves. They had their chance and essentially blew it and were/are as culpable of error and mistakes as any other of the peoples of the Legendarium.

Quite right on all accounts (and they passed that racial superiority complex down to the Númenóreans as well). But if there's one elf in LotR who showed sympathy and understanding to other peoples (especially Dwarves!) from the first moment we met her it's Galadriel:

Originally Posted by LotR Book Two, The Mirror of Galadriel

'Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dûm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone.' She looked upon Gimli, who sat glowering and sad, and smiled. And the Dwarf, hearing the names given in his own ancient tongue, looked up and met her eyes; and it seemed to him that he looked suddenly into the heart of an enemy and saw there love and understanding.

It would be nice if RoP showed us how she arrived at this.

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

That said (and take away my Lembas if you want and send me to the corner), I think there is a lot of room to show how a younger Galadriel behaved or misbehaved before she found some equanimity or serene wisdom. I think Tolkien too was conflicted about how to write Galadriel into the Silm after LotR. So I don't object to seeing swordsmanship being used to demonstrate her physical prowess and expect to see growth in her character. I also recall Tolkien's effort to explain away magic and try to explain the special effects of the elves as some kind of art which we readers cannot appreciate or yet see. I also see her in this Age as something equivalent to an angsty adolescent who isn't sure how to express herself in anything other than a rebellious attitude or stubborn self-will. So I am expecting to see her "grow out of" relying on kung fu fighting. Maybe I have greater expectations than I should of this series or maybe I am just too willing not have too strong expectations of what I want to see in her. And I remember Jael and Sisera in the Bible or Judith and Holofernes as well. We do see the woman healer beheading an orc.

Far be it from me to begrudge you your lembas! No doubt Galadriel had her rebellious adolescent phase like everybody else - back in the First Age, which RoP can't show, so under the dictate that characters need to have arcs, start somewhere and end up somewhere else I get why they're doing this. I'm not quite sure why a person of such volatile temper would be made Commander of the Northern Armies, but I suppose nobility will do that for you.
That Galadriel had the physical prowess to wield a sword and be good at it anytime is, I think, undisputable. I said I don't think it was a stellar decision, not that it was an abysmal one, and I'm for now I'm content to watch what they do with her. It certainly doesn't mean I have any principal objections against women with swords. (Since you brought up Bronwyn [whom I keep wanting to call Bronwen, which would not only be good Welsh but also remotely plausible Sindarin] beheading the Orc, it's interesting that none of warrior-Galadriel's detractors have objected to that, isn't it? Probably because she was acting as Momma Bear protecting her young = conforming to maternal gender role.)

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

I guess I am just willing to sit back and see what plays out rather than have any high expectations of the character. But I do object to people mixing up their ideology with Tolkien's art and calling that Tolkien's canonical statement, which you have neatly sidestepped.

Have I? I thought I agreed with you and tried to make a guess about the psychology behind the ideology.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

So what issue do I have with the concept of shieldmaiden-Galadriel? For one thing, in my mind she was so much more than that. For another, that the chronology of her character development is all wrong. She is Nerwen in Valinor. I can well see a young Galadriel getting all hot-headed and rushing off on a vengeful quest or even leading an army in the Valinor days, or at Alqualonde, or Helcaraxe, or perhaps shortly after. In Beleriand I can see her donning armour to stand guard with other soldiers and/or generals during the wars of her kingdom(s). Perhaps she might even have marched up to Morgoth's gate with Fingolfin's host, or done a tour of the Leaguer. She might certainly still do whatever masculine sports Nerwen might have enjoyed - but as sports, not as raison d'etre. And had there been reason for them to be more than sports, I think she would have used her skills accordingly. But I think she would have respected Doriathrin politics of minimal interference in the Noldor messes, standing by her husband's house in that, and by the time Thingol and Melian died she and Celeborn were no longer there, or else the Dwarves and Cel&Cur might have found more resistance. Then, as time goes by, she devotes less care to swinging the sword, and more care to building a kingdom - after all, that was her ambition in coming to Middle-earth in the first place, and it is a natural progression from soldier to general, from hot-tempered youth to wisdom. Her energy is directed less into brute force and more into other forms of power. Her power grows not in martial prowess but in her "magic" and in her position in the world. Does she still have the martial prowess? Sure. Is that what she values most about herself? No. Does she wear armour as she marches on Dol Guldur? Probably. In the end, is it her sword-bouncing skills that take it down? No. The progression is from Nerwen to Galadriel, not the other way around.

I really hope we'll see this yet, just pushed into the future by an Age or so.

[Michael Murry]

[DELETED BY ADMIN]

Understood.

But since I refuse to spend precious pennies watching this Amazon-ROP drek, I really have no basis upon which to form an opinion other than second-hand reports from others who say that they have. This conversation, then, obviously must exclude me. Fair enough.

And if Jeff Bezos and Amazon don't qualify as pirates, then the word has really lost all applicability to real life.

Sincere apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused anyone and Best Wishes to all who can afford to bother themselves with this sort of "entertainment."