**Spoiler Warning** Rings of Power S1E6 - "Udûn"

[Boromir88]

Overall, the episode was pretty good. Nothing was as memorable as the songs in the previous episode, but nothing was as weird as the silmaril/mithril plot either.

The action scenes were ok. They didn't really do anything for me, besides looking good. I was tense during the orc Theo/Bronwyn fight in Ep 2 and the trenches fight in Ep 3. I don't think this episode did as good of a job as building tension, prior to and during the fight sequences. When Adar entered the tavern and the orcs start slaughtering the survivors only then did it pick up. I also liked when the defenders realized that it was men that they were fighting and killed during the initial skirmish.

I agree with Gil-Galad that Adar was the standout performance in the episode. He gives us the uruk origin story and I like his conversation with Galadriel. Adar says they are creations of "the One," the Secret Fire, just like elves and are thus allowed to live in the world. Galadriel says they are corruptions from Morgoth, made in mockery. But it sets up the question of orcs and their redemption, making them more than just nameless slaves for the heroes to kill. I thought it was interesting the Numenoreans took orc prisoners, as well. Not something I was expecting to see in a traditional fantasy story.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

- I know I have critiqued the pacing before, but the editing here has been some of the worst. Having a quick cut to the Numenoreans charging along the plain really took away from the moment in the tavern when you hear the hoofbeats like thunder. Same with seeing Waldreg using the key to break the dam and release the river like a proud ent, and then switch to a heartfelt scene between father and son. This could very well be personal taste, but I can imagine better editing would do a great service.
Also, the whole switcheroo with the sword-key was silly, along with the "hiding it so nobody knows oh but wait this kid knows".

I agree the Numenoreans charging over the plains ruined it for me, not only because it took away from the tavern scene but also because it made very little sense. I might have missed something, but how on earth would Galadriel/The Numenoreans know to hurry to this particular village? I mean you don't just gallop around the countryside hoping to run into a bunch of orcs up past their bedtime.

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

- I feel more and more that Halbrand is Sauron now, especially from his interaction with Adar. Adar believes that he killed Sauron, who is known to take multiple forms. While the acting leaves a lot to be desired if he is in fact Sauron, it fits in plotwise. Hoping this awkard, possibly sexual, tension between Galadriel and Halbrand peeters off soon.

Yes, please make that tension go away and quick.
Also completely unreleated, is Halbrand's kingdom supposed to compose of more than a single village?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

The action scenes were ok. They didn't really do anything for me, besides looking good. I was tense during the orc Theo/Bronwyn fight in Ep 2 and the trenches fight in Ep 3. I don't think this episode did as good of a job as building tension, prior to and during the fight sequences. When Adar entered the tavern and the orcs start slaughtering the survivors only then did it pick up. I also liked when the defenders realized that it was men that they were fighting and killed during the initial skirmish.

I really liked them, but as Gil-Galad said it was kind of ruined by editing. While i enjoy a grand cavalry charge as much as the next person, I do think that these scaled down battles are more interesting than the big ones in the Jackson movies.

[Oddwen]

Nice of Adar to bury his sunflower seed hulls.

Female orc confirmation???

GIMBATUL!

Ooh the blood color reveal was cool. The reveal of the townspeople's bodies reminded me of the passage in RotK where the army of Mordor tossed the heads of the fallen over the walls of Minas Tirith.

Yeah, seal the outside of the wounds so all the blood leaks inside where it's supposed to be!

Boy when I tell you I cackled when I saw the mountain that the river was flowing towards, I cackled when I saw the mountain that the river was flowing towards.



I like the idea of Adar as an anti-Sauron, I wonder if he will denounce or embrace Annatar/TotallyNotSauron when he appears?

Originally Posted by Rune

While i enjoy a grand cavalry charge as much as the next person, I do think that these scaled down battles are more interesting than the big ones in the Jackson movies.

I do too, though this did suffer a lot of the usual boring Gloating Enemy Suddenly Stabbed From Behind, Oh No This Character Is Dead No Wait They Aren't, and This Trap Won't Work Oh Wait Yes It Will moments.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

I mean you don't just gallop around the countryside hoping to run into a bunch of orcs up past their bedtime.

You don't just gallop around the countryside, period. Horses are not dirt bikes; they get tired- and tire very quickly when running, just like people. Cavalry does NOT gallop in transit. Jackson got the great charge close to right: the Rohirrim started at a walk, accelerated to a trot, and only went to a gallop as they got within bowshot. The images of the Numenoreans coursing across the countryside for hundreds of miles from the coast to Mordor(!) as if the fox was in sight was just silly.

[Pervinca Took]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nothing was as memorable as the songs in the previous episode

Not even this?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yW_ocZLaRdI

[Formendacil]

I had time to watch this yesterday... but it didn't motivate me as much as doing the other things I could do, which continues to suggest this show doesn't super motivate me.

Again, my various reactions:

• That glove Adar wears is pretty Mordorian...

• Night generally seems believable as night in this show.

• Trap them in the falling tower is somewhere between shield surfing and The Hobbit movies for plausibility.

• Isildur, that apple was not finished enough to waste throwing to the sea.

• It is very unclear how long this voyage was--and that was a problem with the outbound voyage too: Númenor isn't clearly distant from Middle-earth.

• It is not at all clear to me that this ruined village is a better stronghold than the tower was.

• I still don't buy "Bronwyn, Leader of Men." She's more convincing as 21st century mom.

• The seed-planting tradition is completely made-up for this show, but I do like the parallelism between Adar and Arondir.

• The approach of the enemy in the dark--and the anticipation of them--is good. It reminds me tonally of Strider and the Hobbits waiting for the Black Riders to approach at Weathertop.

• Bronwyn, there are torches everywhere--surely, some flame could have been prepared in advance. A light under a bushel basket, so to speak.

• The horror of realising Men were sent in against Men is well done--as is the dying orkish delight in the same.

• If Bronwyn actually dies here, with the proverbial arrow through her shoulder, that's actually quite gutsy of the writers--otherwise, rather trite.

• Well, they're hitting GoT levels of bloodiness or trying to.

• Looks like they've chosen gutsy!--nevermind. Trite it is (though all the gore is definitely helping them earn it a bit).

• Ummm... for the size of those ships, this many horsemen seems improbable. Also, has no one read "The Disaster of the Gladden Fields"? The strength of the Númenóreans was largely in infantry.

• Horse-tail helms? Come on! These are Númenóreans!

• What kind of military nonsense is Míriel engaging in sending Isildur in solo? He has a duty--he should be hying to it. And Míriel seems like she ought to be quite competent--and strict.

• Stopping mid-battle to stare in awe seems a good way to get yourselves killed, boys.

• Well, there's some confirmation of a theory: Adar is a progenitor of the Orks.

• Adar's recounting of Sauron's history is actually rather good.

• As is his defence of the orks' worth--a very Tolkienian topic to grapple with.

• Actually, Adar in general is pretty fascinating. A pity I can't say as much for Galadriel or Halbrand.

• Fighting at someone's side seems... kind of a weird moment for deciding you are a different person. I'm not sure how I take this.

• Also, why did Míriel come to observe what, at the scale of Númenor, is a mere skirmish? It's like the President of the USA doing a ribbon-cutting a new grocery store...

• Your people are alive, Bronwyn? How many? Like... the scale of this world is inconsistent and weird, and a lot of people looked like they went over to the enemy and/or died.

• I'd like a longer look at Halbrand's sigil.

• You don't even stay to watch what he does with it, Arondir?

• Evil Barliman, my beloved, you're alive!

• I'd like to know how geologically accurate this is.

• Well, that's definitely a cliffhanger.

[Galadriel55]

I've been finding myself putting off watching this, I'm watching along rather reluctantly, almost as a chore rather than something I would look forward to. I feel like that speaks to the quality of the show, really. Long past my actual anger at any inconsistencies has burned away, all that's left is, well, indifference mainly. There just isn't enough in this show to keep stimulating interest. I would not lose a wink of sleep if I never found out what happens next. And I fear this episode hasn't changed my mind.

This time, I decided to actually take notes like Form, rather than try to remember things after the episode.

• Adar talking to Orcs in immaculate “Elvish accent”… *shrug* Orcs should have Orcified the Elvish geographical names, it just gives a smidge of dissonance. In other words – the Orcs use Black Speech amongst themselves, but their awed and revered leader speaks Elvish, and chooses to use the Elvish forms of the words, and that’s just their norm?
• What is Nampat? They keep saying that.
• Why are the Orcs invading so cautiously? Storm the tower, don’t creep slowly like you’re confused sheep.
• Clever Home Alone style tower defense. Aside from the physics of bringing down an entire tower (how shabby was it supposed to have been?), I like that – at least the concept of the ploy.
• Why do the “good guys” have Orc heads on spikes? Or is that meant to anger the Orcs and lure them in to rush to whatever position they want them in? Or the good guys have an evil streak as well?
• Planting Alfirin before battle seems like a somewhat grim but believable tradition. Approve. “We shall plant the rest together”, all 3 of them – well, now that he’s said it we clearly know they won’t.
• Did Arondir stab that Orc in the head and he still didn’t die? The thing with that fight scene… Arondir gets his ribs kicked in pretty convincingly, but at the same time I feel no tension whatsoever, because I know he’s not actually gonna be killed. And when he just gets up after like nothing happened… What was that whole sequence for? Like, limp, or something! Make it real! Make me believe that you can actually be hurt by this!
• Double Orc assault! Adar is actually a strategic planner too! Woohoo! And of course it would be the Men who pledged themselves over who go in the first wave. That makes perfect sense, and is pretty well done.
• So they just have time to deal with Bronwyn’s arrow while the orcs are charging? Sure… Also, is she really the only wounded one to make it into the tavern? Did the others all flat out die?
• What part of “stem the bleeding” do you not understand?! Also, that is a terrible example of getting lay people to do medical tasks for you. Tell Theo exactly what he will need to do. “Put pressure here when I say so” is a good instruction. “Stem the bleeding” is not. PSA: pressure is the first and best thing you can do for bleeding of most kinds. Making Theo cauterize his mom’s wounds? Worst idea ever. Get literally anyone else in the tavern to do it. Why is it that only the few select characters are able to do actions, and the rest are NPCs? It’s like they don’t exist as people, they don’t have agency of their own. [Here I went on a rant about why cauterizing the bejeezus out of the external tissues doesn’t stop internal bleeding, especially if there was damage to her subclavian vein (if it was the artery I expect bleeding to be heavier and with their level or coordination she would have been dead), but I took it out because it actually has little bearing on the actual show and is just a professional gripe]. Alfirin seeds to staunch bleeding? That is interesting.
• *Orcs attack* ……Ladies and gentlemen, and that is why you leave an arrow inside the wound until after the battle is over and you have the time to deal with the bleeding and all that jazz.
• Seriously, what is Nampat?
• A homage to PJ-Elrond’s tradition that commanders have no helmets, commanders need no helmets. And late season GOT for ignoring such mundane concepts as “time” and “distance” and “horses are not supersonic” and "why are they specifically here as opposed to literally anywhere else in the vast south-east corner of ME".
• Is that Isildur by Miriel’s side? “Go” – where? To where the rest of the cavalry is? Why? He doesn't have a message or any other task. Isil, are you not a stable sweep? What are you even doing by Miriel’s side?
• Captions insist that Arondir and Galadriel are speaking Quenya. Why would Arondir be speaking Quenya? I can’t make out enough words to confirm the language, but why on earth would they be speaking Quenya? And then when Galadriel switches to a whispered “noro lim”, then she switches to Sindarin. Should be the other way around really. No, the recognizable phrase should be in its language, though it could conceivably be in Quenya, but Arondir doesn’t have any good reason to be speaking Quenya.
• Where is Halbrand riding from? Adar and Galadriel were riding away from the fight. How does he suddenly appear in front of them?
• Rich talk, Galadriel, for someone who spent the first 6 episodes fueling her rage and vengeance.
• Captive Orcs. That is interesting. I don’t think there’s any precedent for that. Captive Men – yes. I don’t remember captive Orcs. There always seemed to be a dynamic of no quarter asked / no quarter given when Orcs were concerned.
• Who woulda thunk it that “Father” could have been a literal Orc father. Whoever was betting on that can collect. I suppose this could arguably retrospectively justify the Elvish – “Adar”, and why he is so fond of it, and why the other Orcs tolerate his use of the Elvish.
• Interesting discussion on the nature of Orcs.
• What the hell is going on with the dynamic between Halbrand and Galadriel? Also, that feeling they felt fighting at each other’s side – it all sounds like empty words to me, I have no idea what significance this has for them, especially for Halbrand. You can’t both keep his entire past a teasing mystery, and expect the audience to feel the profoundness of such a moment. I simply do not understand what feeling they are talking about and why that would change them both so profoundly.
• True King of the Southlands could have been developed better, I think. It’s an element bereft of backstory. It’s just kinda random. And in this case, you can’t even fill in the gaps with existing Tolkien lore. It comes like a dry fact or “plot twist” of history that everyone just accepts. I don’t feel the significance of his coming for the different parties involved. At the time of this scene, I can’t really see how life with a king is different than without a king.
• Who is that dude again, the one who got the Lugrom blade? Is that the evil barkeep? Also, did anyone catch at what point they actually swapped the blade out?
• Is this how the Sea of Nurnen forms? Someone literally floods the whole area? (edit: never mind)
• Why are they chanting Udun now? Seriously, do the Orc chants have any significance, or are they just chanting random words for the sound effect?
• Can you actually trigger a volcanic eruption by pouring water into it? A bunch of steam – yes. If enough water vapourizes quickly enough in the right space, it could even make the rock explode. Would it trigger a full eruption? Dunno. Anyone know enough geology to comment?

Overall impression:

I like Adar and the Orc philosophizing. The Orcs in this show are definitely a plus.
I like the Alfirin traditions - plant the flower before battle which will either grow on your grave or stanch your wounds... It just seems appropriate.
I am profoundly unmoved by any of the emotional or epic stuff - it's hard to be invested when you know the characters are gonna live, or to feel the emotional suspense when you lack the characters' backstory. And I agree that the scene sequences and the pacing was not great - and the dialogue remains predictably so.
The volcano cliffhanger loses all its cliffhanginess because you know all the important characters will live.

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

Everyone is going to survive cause that tavern is made of something stronger then mithril: plot armour.

Lol. Yes. But - at some point in the show, one of Isildur's buddies is gonna die. My money is on the one that decided fighting is not for him after all, and he wants to dedicate himself to peaceful prospects.

Agree with everyone saying Halbrand is becoming increasingly Sauronian.

Originally Posted by Rune

Also completely unreleated, is Halbrand's kingdom supposed to compose of more than a single village?

Yes, that.

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Yeah, seal the outside of the wounds so all the blood leaks inside where it's supposed to be!

Thank you!!!

Originally Posted by Form

Isildur, that apple was not finished enough to waste throwing to the sea.

Lol, indeed. It looked big enough to still give Bill Ferny a black eye.

Originally Posted by Form

If Bronwyn actually dies here, with the proverbial arrow through her shoulder, that's actually quite gutsy of the writers--otherwise, rather trite.

I feel like in part the dynamic of the show could be redeemed a little if they did even one gutsy thing. Kill a Ned Stark, for goodness sakes, so that we start believing that there is actual real danger to named characters.

Originally Posted by Form

I'd like a longer look at Halbrand's sigil.

Me too.



So - I feel like my impressions are pretty consistent with everyone else's so far on this thread. I absolutely agree that the Adar storyline was the best of this episode. And that the scale of the world and its people seems utterly arbitrary. And pretty much all the other points. Only thing I would disagree with is that I would call the volcano an anti-cliffhanger, as it doesn't really hang you very much. I am also seriously considering not watching any further at this point - but equally might just finish the season for the purpose of being able to discuss it here. If not for the social aspect of discussing it, I wouldn't be watching any further. Heck, I probably wouldn't even have watched this episode.

[Lalwendë]

I didn't watch this one until yesterday morning. I'm less enthused by it than I was, and to be honest real life in the UK is like a particularly absorbing grimdark fantasy right now so I've been occupied with that dystopian story. Though I was definitely lined up to watch House of the Dragon on Monday night at 9pm - that show is really hitting the marks - and have watched that episode three times, it was so good.

Anyway...it was packed full of action and there was a lot I really enjoyed in it, but I'm finding myself getting infuriated about logic holes in the plot so let's get that out of the way.

Reading Tolkien, I never once felt the urge to go and look up scientific information of any kind but after this episode I spent a good couple of hours looking up Vulcanology (I used to work with someone with a doctorate in this but thought she maybe wouldn't appreciate me hassling her about it, you know...). Nobody can face out either pyroclastic flow *or* pyroclastic surge (more likely with a water-meets-magma eruption - it has a proper name, and we saw an example of this with the recent big eruption in Iceland). They'd both likely burn you to a crisp, if you weren't asphyxiated. You have next to no chance of survival, and if you do, you are going to be very badly burnt with lung damage.

It didn't end up in the next episode with it all being a dream that Galadriel had in the shower. At least Dallas writers had that. They need to sharpen this kind of stuff up. We can deal with dragons, magic etc but we *know* how cataclysmic volcanic eruptions work, we have them in the real world.

I really enjoyed the angle of where Adar came from and what he was trying to do, that has legs. I liked how he tricked them by sending in their former neighbours in the Orc armour. And I liked the interrogation scene with Galadriel. This has potential.

I also enjoyed the scenes with Elendil and Isildur, as they developed the father-son relationship, and the 'horse lore' part was great too.

And I watched the next episode soon afterwards, which I found better, in my Netflix-addled, instant gratification needing mind.

[Huinesoron]

Slowly but surely catching up... thank goodness the plot threads are colliding! I'm very happy to have Galadriel + Numenor + Southlands all in one place now, makes keeping track of them much easier.

It was interesting to compare Galadriel and Arondir's fighting styles. Galadriel continues to use 'be where the enemy isn't' as her primary tool - witness that bizarre falling-off-a-horse maneuver she used twice(!). Arondir, meanwhile, is, uh... rubbish in close combat, and just got beaten up until Bronwyn saved him. But he has a solid 'use the architecture as a weapon' theme that Galadriel doesn't use (she just charges).

A few more "Commander"s thrown at Galadriel this time. I think it is actually the only military title even vaguely applied to her - is it in UT that it says she "looked upon the dwarves with the eye of a commander"? It's also the primary translation for Quenya "cáno", so it's definitely the most appropriate rank, but still feels very weird.

One big issue was the repetitiveness of the Southland fight. No less than three times, they celebrated their victory only to find that Oh No! it's not over yet. That's a pacing problem.

I would also have preferred to see the battles. The biggest offender was the whole 'gasp, my hand is wet' sequence. I... assume we were supposed to be seeing that the blood was red rather than black? But a) it was dark and everything looked black, and b) it was firelit so any red looked like reflection. Very badly played.

I did comment to my wife that there was nothing actually proving that Galadriel and Bronwyn were in the same timeframe. It would have been hilarious if the Numenoreans had shown up and discovered the remains of a battle a thousand years earlier. ^_^ Alas.

I've been assuming the tower and village are somewhere around Minas Morgul. That means the Numenoreans sailed up Anduin to future Osgiliath, from which they could probably see the smoke/fire rising over the village. It would be, what, ten, twenty miles to the village then? That's reasonable. But the Orodruin sequence makes it clear that the geography is tower - village - Orc camp - volcano, so I guess the village has to be on the Mordor side. Is there a pass behind Minas Morgul? They obviously didn't take Cirith Ungol, but I've never been clear whether there's a main access route to go with the Spider-infested cave.

Um, what else... disappointed that Adar isn't a named canon character, but proto-Orc (sorry, Uruk) is pretty interesting. I feel like the writers assumed an emotional investment in individual Southlanders that we never had - oh no, Treadmill or whatever, we literally didn't know thee! I wonder if they chopped some stuff out - a scene giving us a reason to care about Fake Barliman and Treadmill, and maybe introducing the Promised King stuff as something other than Galadriel's weird obsession.

Favourite moment was Arondir breaking a hammer on the hell-forged sword. I was convinced he was about to declare a quest to take it to a volcano and set out to kidnap a couple of Harfeet to drag along. ^_^ Weirdest moment was Bronwyn suddenly spouting what I'm sure was Sam's narration in Mordor about light the Dark can't touch. It's nice that they tried, but it didn't fit, and didn't deserve the lampshade they hung on it.

Oh, and my wife the nurse was just as appalled by Bronwyn's "treatment" as everyone else. "But WHY are they cauterising it? She'll just have internal bleeding!"

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Hui

I did comment to my wife that there was nothing actually proving that Galadriel and Bronwyn were in the same timeframe. It would have been hilarious if the Numenoreans had shown up and discovered the remains of a battle a thousand years earlier. ^_^ Alas.

That would have been both hilarious and actually a great twist. Not to mention that this way they could have done the Second Age as a longer and more sensible timeline than whatever they are trying to cram now.