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#1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 247
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I would like to give my opinion regarding Mîn in relation to all the information we have about him.
Regarding whether they are all the same Mîm, from the point of view of the information we have and making the verosimility relevant, I do not think that Tolkien would have thought of a different Mîm on each case. And in the case of a Petty Dwarf, a Dwarf of more than 500 years It would not seem plausible to me. A possible historical line that I propose would be (please correct me if I forget something): -An indefinite time after Nargothrond is complete in FA102, Mîm becomes the young leader of the Petty Dwarves and later attempts to assassinate Finrod (say in FA250). -He is expelled and goes to Dorthonion. -When the Beörians are given Ladros in FA410 he has to leave and goes to Amon Rűdh (who he already knew). So, when Mîm die in 502 (been very old and possibly near to his natural end) would be more or less 300-350 years old. Of course this line would be a mythical adaptation to be able to make a plausible composition of his story. In relation to the moment of the Klage, I agree with Findegil that a possible one would be after stablised the friendship between Túrin and him. Greetings |
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#2 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 369
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#3 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,959
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There's two tentative bits of evidence to support it. First, Azaghâl of Belegost rules for over 200 years - the Dragon-Helm was forged for him as Lord of Belegost after Glaurung's first appearance, and he dies in the Nirnaeth, still fighting fit. Allowing for a childhood (in which he was not king) and old age (in which he couldn't have led them to battle), that gives him a minimum natural lifespan of 350 years, possibly much longer. That would support long-lived Beleriandic dwarves. Secondly, and even more tentative... the poem "The Hoard" is said to be inspired by the tales of Mim and company. The dwarf in it is described like this: But his eyes grew dim and his ears dull and the skin yellow on his old skull; through his bony claw with a pale sheen the stony jewels slipped unseen. That sounds properly ancient, not just "normal lifespan of a dwarf" ancient. If it can be applied to Mim (a big 'if'!), then he seems to have lived past his natural end. Actually, he also calls himself "old" in Mim's Klage. We still don't know when that is: Findegil makes a good point that it doesn't fit with the attack on Amon Rudh, Val Balmer suggests the expulsion from Nargothrond, and I'm now thinking it could be the Beorians arriving in Dorthonion, driving him out to the south. In any case, it seems to be quite some time before his death, so he would be very old by the time Hurin encountered him in Nargothrond. hS PS: re the English title - this thread says it's probably Tolkien's own title. EDIT: this thread discusses the source of the (German) title, in "Mimes Klage(ge)sang", from Wagner's Ring cycle. It appears (untitled) in the early part of the Siegfried libretto, in which Mime complains a lot. The way he speaks resonates strongly with Tolkien's Complaint: Zwangvolle Plage! Müh’ ohne Zweck! Heart-breaking bondage! Toil without end! hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 08-29-2023 at 04:59 AM. Reason: Wagner |
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#4 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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Not necessarily; Dain II was over 250 when he died axe in hand at the siege of Erebor.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#5 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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Coming back to the text and it interpretation: I am not sure that the scene in the begining with:
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- If we see Mîm at the bining coming out of his hole after he was robbed of his chest, where is then the 'run over burning thorns and heather'? - in the first secne the enemies are "Unholde"/'fiends' while in the later scene they are "Menschen"/'Men'. - If it would be the same plundering, that would make 2 additional shifts in perspective necessary in the text (one is of course given, when after describing his coming forth Mîm starts to speak): One from Mîm recounting his live back to life action of him trying and failing to re-create part of his work, and the men shunning and hunting him. And another one when he recounts that it had not been so in the past and so on. Thinks become much easier when we assume that we have 2 diffrent robberies: One done in the past by Men that stole his chest. This is recounted only by Mîm in his speech. And a second that just has happend done by 'fiends' out of which he comes right at the biginning of the text. In that way we would only have in intorduction of the scene and Mîm by a narator voice and than for all the rest Mîm recapitulating his life and actual situation. Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,959
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So yes, we have two robberies: one by Men in his youth, up by Tarn Aeluin; one by fiends (Orcs?) in his old age. Mim's journey is that at first he was hopeful and enjoyed beauty; then he became bitter and dangerous; and now, after that path has ended the same way as the first, he has chosen to try and reclaim some of his original hope and memory. It is so, so tempting to make the second robbery the fall of the House of Random. But then where is Mim's refuge, where he starts his great re-forging? It can't be Nargothrond, that's still intact! So we have to imagine yet another hidden cave, in which Mim holes up only to randomly leave it and go haunt Narog instead. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,330
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We can't say other than it was deep in a nameless forest, where Mim fostered the infant son of a dying woman, and raised him to use his father's reforged sword to kill Glaurung.... oh, wait.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#8 | |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 16
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Also by re-reading both, the prose passage seems to expand on the poem main passages. Poem: - Mim is in cavern - he has already 200 years - The "brutes" live him with his life and his poisoned knife - They smoke him out his caverns - Mim tries to rebuilt the treasure he lost Prose: - Mim checks his hoard and he is clearly already old - Mim builds a check (new element) to keep things safe - Mim is smoked out of his cavern with fire (again??) - The passage of men and petty kingdoms is for sure difficult (if we imagine this tale to be set up in Middle-earth). - Mim starts to rebuild his treasure, but he lacks the creative energy (new) - He mention his poisoned knife |
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#9 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,721
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WARNING: This has become a very long post! Sorry, for that. But maybe I was during working on it somewhat in the same possessed mode as Mîm during his work.
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A farther point of importance here is that what follows is in direct speech (layed by the author into the mouth of Mîm). That must not apply to all the text that follows, but for much of it, since Mîm is often addressed by ‘I’ in the rest of the text, and the style of the text in many passages, with the repeating onomatopoeic ‘tink-tonk’ or ‘tom-tom-tap’ marks it as very homogeneous and a bit in contrast to what had been written so fare. It is sad that no speech marks were used in the translation (maybe following the original text). But in the German use that is more understandable, since they would normally not been repeated at the beginning of each paragraph. Thus if all that follows is in direct speech, in the translation would have been only before the first ‘Tink-tink-tink, …’ that follows immediately and at the final End behind ‘… Keine Zeit zum Denken!’ The English use with a repeated speech mark at the beginning of each paragraph would have been very helpful, but I would here argue that H. J. Schütz, the translator would have marked the difference and incorporated a clear indication if in the original any part of what followed would have been clearly not in direct speech. Therefore, for me the reminder of the text is in Mîm’s words. Quote:
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Some remarks on the back translation: ‘kralligen Klauen’ => ‘grasping claws’: I don’t know if or how to transport back the German repetition of ‘kralligen Klauen’. ‘Kralle’ is used in German for a single talon while ‘Klaue’ means the ‘claw’ as a limb or appendage with more than on talon. Thus ‘talon embattled claws’ would possibly work, but I don’t think that was the original reading. That some repetition was in the original can be seen in the phrases just before this with the ‘verschlungen und sich hochwindend’, which both would translate to ‘twisting’. ‘Wohlan!’ => ‘Well done!’ Someone any better idea here? ‘Wohlan’ is not much used nowadays in German. The first reference that comes to mind is Schiller’s Glocke where it is used as kind of encouragement for the companions in the work to be started. But that use does not fit here entirely and even if, I have no clou how I would translate in that case. Maybe the original had a simple ‘Lo!’, but than I would have rather expected ‘Siehe!’ which would fit not badly in the German translation. Quote:
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At the end of this passage, we get a deep inside view to Mîm’s mind: ‘It was not always so,’ to which time can that refer? Mîm’s time of homeless wandering - Rather not since what we know is that he is often sharpening his knife. Mîm’s time of rest – most unlikely as he is unconscious. Mîm’s time of work – maybe, but he seems to be very obsessed with his work. So most probably his time of inspiration or before in his early youth. ‘it is not good that it is so now.’ So at least he is regretting the change. Quote:
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So what can we make out of it? At least a kind of sequence of events or periods of Mîm’s life: - Mîm’s time of inspiration in his youth: He spent some time in Dorthonion around Tarn Aeluin, was inspired by the beauty of nature and had good relationships to other beings around him. - Mîms time of work: probably it in the beginning overlapped with the time of inspiration and it lasted very long. He had at least at the end of this time a ‘deep home’. The contact to his surrounding must have died down at the end at least, due to his obsession with his work. The result were many beautiful artefacts. - Mîm’s time of possessiveness and his time of rest: He makes his treasure chest and sleeps on it. - The robbery: ‘Men/fiends’ come and smoke him out of his deep home. They robe his ore and gems and carry away his chest. They chase him away from his home. - Mîm’s time of homeless wandering: we do not know how long this lasted, but it is not just a short episode since we hear of long paths wandered and often sharping his knife. - Mîm’s time in his ‘shelter’: He must be long enough in this place to have some encounter with his neighbours and develop the toxic relationship. He tries and fails in re-creating artefacts like of old. - He is smoked out of his shelter, but we do not know, if he is driven forth from it. We only know that he utters his lament. So someone is around to hear it. But it’s not clear, who that is. Probably not the ‘they’ that smoked him out and as well not his neighbours that shot at him with arrows from afar, when he came out to see the sun. But I could well imagine that these neighbours could have smoke him out. How that combines with all the other stuff we learn in the legendarium about Mîm, is quiet another cane of worms. Respectfully Findegil |
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