Ruin of Doriath - Final Part

[Arvegil145]

Actually, now that I think about it, there might be a problem with the idea of Thingol dying in Menegroth - the problem being Melian of course (unless we go with the 'Melian abandoned Thingol' interpretation of the Girdle's disappearance).

Let's say that we do combine the hunt with 'Concerning', a plausible sequence of events might go like this:

1) Thingol and his retinue are ambushed somewhere in Doriath

2) Most of his warriors perish

3) Thingol and the remaining warriors retreat to Menegroth

4) Thingol makes a final stand there, and is killed


But...where is Melian in all of this? She is, after all, a powerful entity, a Maia. Surely she could've helped somehow (if she wanted to)?

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Findegil

RD-EX-54: Agreed on the part of the estrangement. But I still find the "drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]" justified. Look at the senece in Rivendell: Gloin came there to ask for some counsel but nearly he did broke up the Council of Elrond by bring up some old grudge against King Thranduil. We can read in his report of Dain's dealing with the messenger from Mordor that he is temped to buy that peace giving out some information. And Dain is the king of the Longbeards, the one house of Dwarves most friendly with the Elves.

I agree that the statment is very general, but that is rather an argument to include it than for execlusion. It is not said that all Dwarves were from that point onward under the shadow nor that any particular Dwarves were. It rather said that overall the Dwarves tended more to side with the forces in oppostion to the Elves. And that is found true easily: Already we know from Dwarves and Men that probably 3 of the 7 Houses were under the shadow. Up to that point the two Beleraindic Houses and the Longbeards could be called freindly to the Elves. Thus it needs nothing more than the Nogrod Dwarves estranged from the Elves to make that statement true.

I still disagree. There was a very clear change in Tolkien's opinion about Dwarves over the course of his writings, and even if we could perform the logical contortions needed to allow that the statement from TN might still not technically contradict any definite statements from later works, the statement is of a piece with the earlier conception of Dwarves, and I see no reason to retain it when that is removed.

Moreover, I think the statement as written simply can't be technically correct. It says that the Dwarves (i.e. as a whole) have drawn more nigh in friendship to the kin of Melko than to the Elves. Yet, for all that there is clearly some antipathy between Elves and Dwarves, we have many examples of them peacefully coexisting in later ages and little in the way of actual violence between them. On the other hand, we have only sporadic hints of Dwarves in later ages actually allying with Sauron or the other former followers of Morgoth, and we have plenty of violence between them, even with a special enmity between Dwarves and Orcs (followers of Morgoth).

About the hunt: The question here is, if it is an removal or if the hunt was removed by Tolkien. Q30 still includes the hunt, CtH does not. But CCtH is very condensed and if I compare Q30 to the The later Annals of Beleriand from the same time, we can see that compression can lead to the lose of details such as the hunt without them being skipped. But in The later Annals ... still the sequence of events is the same:
- Dwarves invade Doriath
- Thingol was slain
- Thousand Caves were plundered
And that is true even in the later Tale of the Years. In all of its versions from A to D. But the dating of these versions is not given so that we can only deduce from the story of Celegorm and Curufin fighting against the Dwarves at the Ford that they were written between 1951-2 (when the Grey Annals were written) too 1963 (when the fight at the Ford was given Back to Beren).
But it is changed now in CtH were it is:
- Dwarves entered Doriath
- Thousand Caves were violated
- Thingol was slain
This is an evidence for a changed story. But it does not rule out the hunt absoultley. What seem more telling for me is the fact the the violation of his halls and Thingols death are mentioned in one single sentence, while the enterance to Doriath and the perishing most of Thingol's warriors is in a seperated sentence.

I think that the parsing out of a sequence of events here is unfounded. Look at these sentences from AB2, the Tale of Years, and 'Concerning "The Hoard"':

Originally Posted by AB2

Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plun-
dered

Originally Posted by ToY

Thingol is slain, and his realm ended.

Originally Posted by CtH

His halls were violated and he himself slain.

In none of these do we have a sequence of events. "Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered" does not tell us in what order those two events occurred, nor does "His halls were violated and he himself slain." I think that the farthest we can go in teasing out any kind of sequence of events from these is to say that in all of them, the Dwarves enter Doriath first, and both the sacking of Menegroth and the death of Thingol occur afterward. (In this, all three differ from the version imagined in the note where Thingol was lured beyond his borders). But they say nothing about the order of Thingol's death and the sacking.

Which is all to say that despite my reluctance to keep the hunt, I don't see that CtH presents any difficulties for it from a sequence-of-events perspective. I had also forgotten that the hunt was still present in Q. So I'm now less opposed to retaining it.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

Given the sheer contempt in which the Petty-dwarves were held by by their 'greater' counterparts in the later writings, I find this part implausible.

I'm not sure that this contradicts the line you object to. One might hold another group in contempt and still object to their being hunted for sport. Moreover, since this text comes in the context of explaining the attack of the Dwarves against Doriath, the "rationalization" is pertinent, even if it is only a rationalization.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-54: I am not adamnat on this. If you really think it is out of line here, we can skip it.

The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.

RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing:

:§288 (§17b) RD-EX-20.1 <TN Now therefore did those of {Úrin}[Húrin]'s band murmur,> {The}the outlaws, released from the presence of Húrin, claimed that it was theirs, won by their weapons and labour.{ Fighting broke out, even in the inviolable halls of Thingol.}RD-SL-08c <TN {and}And one said to the king: 'Lo, lord, our captain {Úrin}[Húrin], an old man and mad, has departed, but we have no mind to forego our gain.'
RD-EX-20.11<TN, move from below Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold.> Then said {Tinwelint}[Thingol] for neither was he untouched by the golden spell: ‘Nay then, know ye not that this gold belongs to the kindred of the Elves in common, for the {Rodothlim}[Noldor] who won it from the earth long time ago are no more, and no one has especial claim' to so much as a handful save only {Úrin}[Húrin] by reason of his son Túrin, who slew the Worm, the robber of the Elves; yet Túrin is dead and {Úrin}[Húrin] will have none of it; and Túrin was my man.{’}
(§19) {At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath, until the king said: }‘Get ye now gone, and seek not O foolish ones to quarrel with the Elves of the forest, lest death or the dread enchantments of Valinor find you in the woods. Neither revile ye the name of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] their king, for I will reward you richly enough for your travail and the bringing of the gold. Let each one now approach and take what he may grasp with either hand, and then depart in peace.’
§290 (§20) {Now were the Elves of the wood in turn displeased, who long had stood nigh gazing on the gold; but the wild folk did as they were bid, and yet more, for some went into the hoard twice and thrice, and angry cries were raised in that hall. Then would the woodland Elves hinder them of their thieving, and a great dissension arose, so that though the king would stay them none heeded him. Then did those outlaws}RD-EX-20.12 <TN, moved from above At those words the outlaws fell into great wrath,> [u]and[/b] being fierce and fearless folk draw swords and deal blows about them, so {that}RD-EX-20.13 <TN, moved from above even though the king would stay them none heeded him, and> soon there was a great fight even upon the steps of the high-seat of the king.
Doughty were those outlaws and great wielders of sword and axe from their warfare with Orcs, so that many were slain ere the king, seeing that peace and pardon might no longer be, summoned a host of his warriors, and those outlaws RD-EX-20.2{being wildered with the stronger magics of the king' and }confused in the dark ways of the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] were all slain fighting bitterly; but the king's hall ran with gore, and the gold that lay before his throne, scattered and spurned by trampling feet, was drenched with blood. Thus did the curse of Mîm the Dwarf RD-EX-20.25b begin its course; and yet another sorrow sown by the {Noldoli}[Noldor] of old in Valinor was come to fruit.
Then were the bodies of the RD-EX-20.3{outlaws cast forth, but the woodland Elves that were }slain {Tinwelint let bury}buried nigh to the knoll of Tinúviel,> RD-EX-20.4<Q30 and the howe wherein they were laid in Doriath was named {Cum-nan-Arasaith,} the Mound of Avarice.>

I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.

{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.

About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.

By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

The Hunt: The death of Thingol is easier to be understood with the hunt included: If he is huntig, he is outside his strong hold, he is away from most of his warriors, he is away from Melian. Beside that the only details that we have about his death and how the curse of Mîm took a part in it, are from an outside place, not from inside Menegroth (even so we know that the caves had a rebuild naturalistic look). As the Hunt is never really contradicted, but only leftout possibly due to compression, I think the above mentioned reason might be enough to keep the hunt.

Arvegil145: Your sequence can work, but I don't see evidence to incould it in our text.

It's alright, my 'sequence' was just a thought experiment anyway.

As to the Hunt, while I still lean toward the idea that Thingol died in Menegroth (as per an interpretation of 'Concerning'), I'm fine either way.

Originally Posted by Findegil

RD-SL-08: Okay, if the outlaws are unable to compromise, what about this edditing:I had to change the sequence of the sentences a bit, to have Thingol trying to keep peace, but beeing denied by the outlaws.

Most of it is fine, but my original complaint was that I believe that it was Thingol who started the fight according to 'Concerning': however, the passage in question is vague enough to be interpreted either way, it's just that I think that the curse of Mim/Glaurung/Morgoth/whomever worked its way really quickly on Thingol in the later conception, potentially leading him to commit some heinous deeds.

But again, I'm fine with either interpretation.

Originally Posted by Findegil

{gold}[silver]: You think that the complete hoard of Nargothrond should be more silver than gold? That would make sense in many places in our text. But in the end the Ascar is named 'Goldenbed' not 'Silverbed'. So gold has to remain ar considerable part of the hoard.

Not at all - I'm sure there was plenty of gold in the hoard.

My problem was that in The Nauglafring, Tinwelint's obsession was with gold, not silver; and in the 'Concerning' it is the other way around (cf. the two silver thrones for himself and Melian, and the Nauglamir being made of silver - paralleling Thranduil in The Hobbit).

With that in mind, whatever trinkets made for Tinwelint in TN (i.e. gold helm, gold hilt, etc.) should be changed to 'silver', to reflect the thematic change in the 'Concerning'.

Originally Posted by Findegil

About the hunting down of the Petty-Dwarves as grievance for the Dwarves of Nogrod: I agree fully to Aiwendil here. It is one thing to have a feud among your own people, but if some one from outside does kill them is another matter. And anyhow it is Tolkien telling us about this in the same mix of interrests (First pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of Ered luin, than the Grey-Elves hunting Petty-Dwarves, the Dwarves of Ered Luin builing up good buisness with the Grey-Elves and helping Felagund to build Nargothrond and by that pushing the Petty-Dwarves out of their home, and then at last searching for some propaganda-reason to fight with Thingol, when the real intention is just to get the Hoard.) The same goes for the violent death of Mîm. It is just propaganda for Naugladur. And in thi scase it can even be seen easily: Mîm was killed and robbed by Húrin and his Men, but the revenge that Naugladur plans is on Thingol.

I guess the 'Mim being thrice avenged' and the line before that can be interpreted as propaganda/rationalization. I'm still hesitant about it, but you and Aiwendil made a decent argument.

Originally Posted by Findegil

By the way: Since we hear now that Mîm was not of the kin of Nogrod, but we now that the Petty-Dwarves were driven from the mansions in the Ered Luin, we can now be sure that it was from Belegost that they had come. We could guess that before, since the news of Mîm's death reached Belegost first, but hear we have now a confirmation.

You're wrong about this, though.

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath:

At last in an unhappy hour he sent for the Dwarves of the Mountains to the east from Belegost and Nogrod.

and after that

Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.

which leads me to

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains).

So, in the 'Concerning' at least, Mim was not related to either the Dwarves of Nogrod or Belegost.


P.S. The idea that it was only the Dwarves of Nogrod that attacked Doriath comes from 'Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn', right? But that text was written in the '50s, while 'Concerning... The Hoard' dates from c. 1964.

Is there any text later than 'Concerning... The Hoard' that has only the Dwarves of Nogrod take part in the invasion?

[Arvegil145]

There's an interesting comment by Hammond and Scull, in regards to 'Concerning... The Hoard', from lotrplaza.com:

With regard to the ruin of Doriath, the story told in the 1964 manuscript is closer to the Quenta Noldorinwa (not published until 1986) than to The Nauglafring in The Book of Lost Tales, but differs in some respects from any published version — for instance, before beginning work on the treasure, the dwarves agree to accept a payment of a tenth of the unwrought metals. Thingol, however, is still killed outside Menegroth, with Tolkien giving two possible reasons why the dwarves were able to pass the Girdle of Melian.

My emphasis.

It seems that either Hammond and Scull misremembered the text, or, more intriguingly, came to a different conclusion regarding the death of Thingol.

The full quote is found on TG: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Conc...27The_Hoard%27

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

In the 'Concerning', both the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost took part in the invasion of Doriath

'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.

[Val Balmer]

I mostly agree with Aiwendil in his two latest posts.

Personally, I would keep the hunt story and involve only the dwarves of Belegost.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

'Concerning "The Hoard"' says only that Thingol sent for the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. It does not say that the emissaries and craftsmen who came to Menegroth were from both cities, much less that both groups took part in the attack.

Since Belegost and Nogrod are so frequently mentioned together, it also seems at least possible to me that mentioning both of them in CtH was a slip of the pen, and that he had momentarily forgotten the decision that Belegost was not involved.

Lacking a more definitive statement about it, I'm inclined to retain the story that only the Dwarves of Nogrod were involved.

About the hunt: I can see the argument either way. I'll agree to whichever consensus others come to on this one.

Did you notice the plural in:

Back in their mountains’ strongholds they plotted revenge, and not long after they came down with a great force and invaded Doriath.

That plus:

Also (they now urged) the treasure had been taken with violence and murder from a Dwarf (though Mim was not in fact akin to the Dwarves of the eastern mountains)

The context of which to me at least heavily suggests that both Nogrod and Belegost were involved.