3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles

[Findegil]

Arvegil145, ArcusCalion already remaked on that back very early in the thread and since than the '- e-g- especially Durin -' is back in our text. We only left out the next ' ... of former King {Durin (say) }to which ...'.

I hope that is okay for you.
Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Arvegil145, ArcusCalion already remaked on that back very early in the thread and since than the '- e-g- especially Durin -' is back in our text. We only left out the next ' ... of former King {Durin (say) }to which ...'.

I hope that is okay for you.
Respectfully
Findegil

Yeah...I really need to learn to read before I post...

[Arvegil145]

I think this footnote by Tolkien from NoME could be incorporated here, or otherwise in the Valaquenta:

The most notable were those Maiar who took the form of the mighty speaking eagles that we hear of in the legends of the war of the Ñoldor against Melkor, and who remained in the West of Middle-earth until the fall of Sauron and the Dominion of Men, after which they are not heard of again. Their intervention in the story of Maelor, in the duel of Fingolfin and Melkor, in the rescue of Beren and Lúthien is well known. (Beyond their knowledge were the deeds of the Eagles in the war against Sauron: in the rescue of the Ring Finder and his companions, in the Battle of Five Armies, and in the rescue of the Ringbearer from the fires of Mount Doom.)

- The Nature of Middle-earth, 'Manwë's Ban', footnote, p. 308 (from c. 1970 + )


Though I have no idea what the 'story of Maelor' (assuming it means 'Maglor') means. Perhaps Tolkien just conflated him with Maedros.

[Findegil]

This does rather cast much of this chapter in doubt, instead of asking for an addition to it.
What are ‘the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ that Manwë and Yavanna create here together, if ‘the mighty speaking eagles’ of all these story are Maiar? It seems that Tolkien had come down full circle to the passage from LT: ‘Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; and their eyes could see to the depths of the sea and could pierce the hidden caverns under the world, and their wings could bear them through the three regions of the firmament beyond the lights of heaven to the edge of Darkness. Thus they brought word to him of well nigh all that passed in Aman: yet some things were hidden even from the eyes of Manwë and the servants of Manwë, for where Melkor sat in his dark thought impenetrable shadows lay.’
Since Manwë’s Ban is most probably later than Anaxartaron Onyalie / Of the Ents and the Eagles, I think we have to follow this and eliminate the creation of ‘the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ from this chapter. The Note from NoME should than be included in the Of the Maiar sub-chapter of the Valquenta.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I do not think it is so simply one or the other Fin. In The Hobbit and LotR, Gwaihir and Landroval are given familial relations and ancestries, placing them firmly in the domain of real living creatures, not incarnated spirits. It seems likely to me that Tolkien intended perhaps some of the original Great Eagles, such as Thorondor, to have been incarnated Maiar, but that the race of speaking Eagles themselves were NOT purely spiritual beings. Therefore I think we can find a way to reconcile these two things.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I do not think it is so simply one or the other Fin. In The Hobbit and LotR, Gwaihir and Landroval are given familial relations and ancestries, placing them firmly in the domain of real living creatures, not incarnated spirits. It seems likely to me that Tolkien intended perhaps some of the original Great Eagles, such as Thorondor, to have been incarnated Maiar, but that the race of speaking Eagles themselves were NOT purely spiritual beings. Therefore I think we can find a way to reconcile these two things.

This is more or less my line of thought as well.

After all, we have at least one instance of an Ainu procreating (Melian), so why not some others (i.e. Thorondor)?

However, Melian (an Ainu) had a child with Thingol (an Elf): who's to say that Thorondor (an Ainu) didn't procreate with some other Eagle-shaped Ainu - making all of his descendants Ainur by extension?

Sure, we are told that the Valar refrained from procreation, since it is the most physically 'binding' act of all - but that doesn't mean that the Maiar were all exclusively bound to this rule of thumb: some, like Melian, were probably ordained by Eru (via dreams and visions, as per the NoME) to travel to Middle-earth, and eventually make a (temporary) home there, even to the point of procreation!

So - what's stopping Thorondor in making his own 'Maiarindi' (so to speak )? Because if he did so, it was surely due to designs/vision of Iluvatar.

[Findegil]

I agree it is most likely that Thorondir 'procreated with some other Eagle-shaped Ainu'. But if so, for what do we need 'the Eagles of the Lords of the West’ that Manwë and Yavanna create together in this chapter?

Or is your line of thinking that the Ainur in Eagle-shape might be a to small number for what istold about the eagles in the Battel of the five Armies and in the Battle of the Black Gate?

Respectfully
Findegil