** Revising The Voyage of Earendil - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 09-06-2023, 02:18 AM

Sorry Arvegil145, I do not understand what you mean her. Didn't we do, with the combi of the 'Phophecy of Mandos' and 'it is said among Men' exactly what Tolkien did in the notes to the Athrabeth: 'recontextualizing this legend as a Mannish/Numenorean myth'?

What about that is like fan-fiction?
Respectfully
Findegil

Arvegil145 · 09-06-2023, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

Sorry Arvegil145, I do not understand what you mean her. Didn't we do, with the combi of the 'Phophecy of Mandos' and 'it is said among Men' exactly what Tolkien did in the notes to the Athrabeth: 'recontextualizing this legend as a Mannish/Numenorean myth'?

What about that is like fan-fiction?
Respectfully
Findegil

According to the Note 7, 'Author's Notes on the Commentary' to the Athrabeth, p. 342, it says:

Quote:

It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the 'Silmarillion' is of Númenórean origin; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.

My argument is thus: a prophecy made by Mandos would be highly authoritative, and the Elves would surely have known it - therefore, since Elves didn't have any myths or legends regarding the ending of the world, the 'prophecy made by Mandos' has to go.

Also, don't forget the ending of the Valaquenta...

Arvegil145 · 09-06-2023, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

Sorry Arvegil145, I do not understand what you mean her. Didn't we do, with the combi of the 'Phophecy of Mandos' and 'it is said among Men' exactly what Tolkien did in the notes to the Athrabeth: 'recontextualizing this legend as a Mannish/Numenorean myth'?

What about that is like fan-fiction?
Respectfully
Findegil

Mind you, I'm NOT advocating the removal of the details of Dagor Dagorath (i.e. breaking of the Silmarils by Feanor, killing of Melkor at Turin's hands, etc.)!

Aiwendil · 09-06-2023, 10:02 AM

I had forgotten about Letter 153. I agree that this justifies the statement about Tuor, and I think Findegil's suggestion for the text there is good.

Findegil · 09-08-2023, 02:41 AM

If I understood now at a long last, what you mean correctly, Arvegil145, you would like either to leave out the sub-chapter title The Second Prophecy of Mandos or change it. Right?
As I just posted in another thread, since the project has decided against the idea of Middle-earth equivalents of our text, we do not make any direct statement how the overall text or this chapter has come down the long year. What we do in our text is give a clear indication that this prophecy was only know as rumour about Men (directly below the sub-title).
I don’t think that any Elf would have had a full knowledge of all prophecies Mandos had made in all the long time that allowed for a transfer of knowledge about it to Men. Thus the question is, even if we think about a larger group of Elves, what could they have said, if Men reported about such a prophecy? In my opinion they could only have voiced some doubts about its authorship by Mandos (and only by that cast some doubts on its content). And that is exactly what we have done. And that is especially true if we consider that they ‘had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world’. How could they gainsay any myths or legends of Men about the far future, without any knowledge (feigned or real), myth or legend of their own?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I appreciate, that the arguments are backuped by quotes. But sometimes it easier to understand the intention when you take the time to make a proposal for the change in question.

Arvegil145 · 09-08-2023, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

If I understood now at a long last, what you mean correctly, Arvegil145, you would like either to leave out the sub-chapter title The Second Prophecy of Mandos or change it. Right?
As I just posted in another thread, since the project has decided against the idea of Middle-earth equivalents of our text, we do not make any direct statement how the overall text or this chapter has come down the long year. What we do in our text is give a clear indication that this prophecy was only know as rumour about Men (directly below the sub-title).
I don’t think that any Elf would have had a full knowledge of all prophecies Mandos had made in all the long time that allowed for a transfer of knowledge about it to Men. Thus the question is, even if we think about a larger group of Elves, what could they have said, if Men reported about such a prophecy? In my opinion they could only have voiced some doubts about its authorship by Mandos (and only by that cast some doubts on its content). And that is exactly what we have done. And that is especially true if we consider that they ‘had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world’. How could they gainsay any myths or legends of Men about the far future, without any knowledge (feigned or real), myth or legend of their own?

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I appreciate, that the arguments are backuped by quotes. But sometimes it easier to understand the intention when you take the time to make a proposal for the change in question.

On second thought, I suppose that the Numenorean writers who either created/compiled/translated the Quenta and its associated texts might have erroneously attributed their own myths about Turin to Mandos himself! Thus creating the (falsely attributed) 'Second Prophecy of Mandos' sub-chapter of the Quenta.

Therefore, I take back my proposal for the removal of the sub-chapter 'The Second Prophecy of Mandos'!

However, with that said, what is the provenance for the other statements about the 'End of Days', 'Dagor Dagorath', 'Manwe descending from Ilmarin', etc.? Not that it really matters for our purposes, but I'm still curious.

Findegil · 09-11-2023, 04:27 AM

Okay, seems I did not make my line of think clear enough. My assumption was from the start, if the prophecy is only a roumor among men the sub-chapter tilte is of course no more authoritativ than the content and equaly who wrote it, it reffers to not more than the roumor of men.

'End of Days': I would think Finrod allude to that concept in the Athrabeth.
'Dagor Dagorath' and 'Manwe descending from Ilmarin': Came from a discussion about Gandalf, when he could no longer been asked. So equaly if the author is considered to be a Hobbit or a Gondorian, he is a learned person of the early Fourth Age. The ultimate source could thus be either elvish via Imladris or ( Manish or Elvish ) via Númenor - ( Arnor - Imladirs ) or Gondor.

Respectfully
Findegil

09-06-2023, 02:18 AM	#1
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Sorry Arvegil145, I do not understand what you mean her. Didn't we do, with the combi of the 'Phophecy of Mandos' and 'it is said among Men' exactly what Tolkien did in the notes to the Athrabeth: 'recontextualizing this legend as a Mannish/Numenorean myth'? What about that is like fan-fiction? Respectfully Findegil

09-06-2023, 10:02 AM	#4
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	I had forgotten about Letter 153. I agree that this justifies the statement about Tuor, and I think Findegil's suggestion for the text there is good.

09-08-2023, 02:41 AM	#5
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	If I understood now at a long last, what you mean correctly, Arvegil145, you would like either to leave out the sub-chapter title The Second Prophecy of Mandos or change it. Right? As I just posted in another thread, since the project has decided against the idea of Middle-earth equivalents of our text, we do not make any direct statement how the overall text or this chapter has come down the long year. What we do in our text is give a clear indication that this prophecy was only know as rumour about Men (directly below the sub-title). I don’t think that any Elf would have had a full knowledge of all prophecies Mandos had made in all the long time that allowed for a transfer of knowledge about it to Men. Thus the question is, even if we think about a larger group of Elves, what could they have said, if Men reported about such a prophecy? In my opinion they could only have voiced some doubts about its authorship by Mandos (and only by that cast some doubts on its content). And that is exactly what we have done. And that is especially true if we consider that they ‘had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world’. How could they gainsay any myths or legends of Men about the far future, without any knowledge (feigned or real), myth or legend of their own? Respectfully Findegil P.S.: I appreciate, that the arguments are backuped by quotes. But sometimes it easier to understand the intention when you take the time to make a proposal for the change in question.

09-11-2023, 04:27 AM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Okay, seems I did not make my line of think clear enough. My assumption was from the start, if the prophecy is only a roumor among men the sub-chapter tilte is of course no more authoritativ than the content and equaly who wrote it, it reffers to not more than the roumor of men. 'End of Days': I would think Finrod allude to that concept in the Athrabeth. 'Dagor Dagorath' and 'Manwe descending from Ilmarin': Came from a discussion about Gandalf, when he could no longer been asked. So equaly if the author is considered to be a Hobbit or a Gondorian, he is a learned person of the early Fourth Age. The ultimate source could thus be either elvish via Imladris or ( Manish or Elvish ) via Númenor - ( Arnor - Imladirs ) or Gondor. Respectfully Findegil