Revised and Expanded Edition of the Letters

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, it strikes me as odd to get heated over a man who's been dead half a century expressing viewpoints eighty years ago which would have been completely unremarkable at the time. Not many people write angrily about Cicero's views on slavery or Boniface VIII's take on religious libertiy. Comment? Sure. But anger? A little misplaced.

[Huinesoron]

Looking purely at the passage in the article Bethberry linked relating to the Legendarium:

In terms of Tolkien’s legendarium, what examples do we have of post-menopausal women? In terms of the elves, he notes in “The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar” in Morgoth’s Ring that, despite their longeval nature, elves, like humans, primarily reproduce in their relative youth; despite retaining the “power of generation” for as long as needed, it is natural for them to no longer have such a desire after some time and “the mind turns to other things” (MR 213). (...) it comes in the same assemblage of writings in which we have Fëanor’s mother, Míriel, will herself to die in an effort to maintain autonomy over her own reproductive rights. There is also the unfortunate case of Elrond’s wife, Celebrían, whose sole purpose in the narrative is to give him three children; after being assaulted (perhaps even sexually assaulted) at the hands of orcs, she is conveniently shipped oversea and out of the narrative. In terms of mortals, we have the busybody nursemaid Ioreth (whose name literally means “old woman” in Sindarin) and the foul-tempered, spoon-stealing Lobelia Sackville-Baggins as our primary examples. In hindsight, a menopausal reading of Lobelia might be very interesting indeed. If someone has written that paper, please let me know – I’d love to read it! If no such paper exists, someone has to write it.

I am *baffled* by the choice of examples. Miriel is in there despite effectively dying in childbirth (and that description of her death, um, does not align with my understanding of the text). Celebrian is... not even a character in the narrative, she's a character on the *timeline* who exists as an excuse for Elrond not to have a wife. (Also, sexually assaulted? I've read that fanfic, don't think it was written by Tolkien!) Ioreth I remember as basically fine. Lobelia steals the spoons possibly before her son is even born, and ends up as the sole native revolutionary against a fascist state.

And the *missing* names! It's notably ridiculous to call Celebrian menopausal but ignore her mother, who is out there ruling Lorien and wielding an Elven ring. Or what about Gilraen, who has actual narrative appearances as a post-menopausal woman? Andreth is raised by someone in the comments on the post, and dismissed by the author as not aligning with Tolkien's view as interpreted from the letter. And should we count Nerdanel or Melian, on the same grounds as Celebrian - immortal woman past the Time of the Children?

In response to the Andreth comment (which noted that her wisdom indicates 'He may have been more understanding of it than you perceive him to be in this letter'), the author says:

I think if the reader reviews the letter and sees all of the comments I quoted in context it is fairly clear that at least in this letter Tolkien is voicing an opinion about women and menopause that is not positive (nor aligning it with wisdom).

That may be true about the letter (I cannot review it as the author suggests, I don't have NewLetters yet), but it definitely does not, as the author seems to indicate, translate to "female characters past childbearing are killed off or written negatively".

hS

[Alassë Estel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, it strikes me as odd to get heated over a man who's been dead half a century expressing viewpoints eighty years ago which would have been completely unremarkable at the time. Not many people write angrily about Cicero's views on slavery or Boniface VIII's take on religious libertiy. Comment? Sure. But anger? A little misplaced.

Indeed.

[Pitchwife]

It's honestly fascinating to me how whenever someone points out that Tolkien may have said, done or written something that jars with progressive values (or even, as in this case, the lived experience of many readers) people either go up in flames or casually shrug it off. Why not discuss his shortcomings as well as his merits?


It's undeniably true, I think, that Tolkien's work is short of a Crone - an elderly female fgure of wisdom and power who could hold a candle to men like Théoden, Denethor, Gandalf, heck, even Saruman. On the other side of the scales, we have Lobelia and Ioreth: the first satirised until she redeems herself with an act of unexpected courage, the second a self-important busybody who just happens to remember a bit of lore which actually saves the lives of some really important people. Hardly the same league.



Galadriel might have filled that vacuum, but doesn't, for the same reason that Míriel, Celebrían, Nerdanel or Melian don't: Elves aren't subject to physical ageing. Elven women may be 3000 years old and long past taking interest in procreation, but they'll still be beautiful - rosy-cheeked, lily-necked, graceful in dance, nightingale-voiced, you name it (although I hope their breath doesn't really smell like hay). Apparently a woman past childbearing can only be an important figure in Middle-earth if she's still physically attractive. That's really sad.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

. Why not discuss his shortcomings as well as his merits?

In my case, the article author said to read the letter, so I'm holding fire until I can.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

.
It's undeniably true, I think, that Tolkien's work is short of a Crone - an elderly female fgure of wisdom and power who could hold a candle to men like Théoden, Denethor, Gandalf, heck, even Saruman.... Apparently a woman past childbearing can only be an important figure in Middle-earth if she's still physically attractive. That's really sad.

Mostly true for LotR (and of course for Hobbit!), but there more in the First Age:

- Andreth is 48 when she holds what I think is the longest single dialogue in Tolkien. The elves, including Finrod, literally call her "Wise-heart".
- Morwen is in her early 50s when she flees to Doriath and when she loses Nienor, and her late 50s when she dies. Not necessarily wise, but strong-willed, although ultimately she just ups and dies without doing anything.
- Aerin's age is unknown, but I'm putting her here because being more than her physical attractiveness is her whole point. She was forced into marriage for Brodda to make an heir on her, but ended up burning everything down.
- Gilraen, I think I said above, has two appearances in her old age. She's specifically noted as having some measure of the foresight of her people.

What's striking about this list is that three of them succumb to some form of despair and die. Lobelia does the same, so I feel like Tolkien's portrayal of elderly mortal women is that they can often be wise or foresighted (include Ioreth or not as you choose), but they are (almost) always struck by melancholy or grief. Andreth has that in spades - and, of course, so do Galadriel and Melian, by the end of their tales. (And Arwen...)

And that's because he makes them *lose everyone*. Andreth, Morwen, Aerin, Gilraen, Lobelia, Melian, and Arwen are all shown after they lose the most important people in their lives (Andreth and Gilraen by giving them up to a different fate). Tolkien kind of writes like "grief at losing your family" is a specific affliction of elderly women - in men, it seems to often come up as anger instead (looking at you, Turin and Hurin and Maeglin), while other times it's brushed off (does Theodred even get a *mention* from Theoden? Do Frodo, Eomer, or Tuor really notice their parents being dead?). Occasionally you get a Denethor going mad, but it's a very different grief to Morwen, or Gilraen.

hS

[Alassë Estel]

I fear that I cannot add much to this discussion.

But it seems wrong to treat the lack of prominent older female characters in Tolkien's work as some sort of grievous insult to women.

Tolkien wrote about what he knew and understood (language and myth, being things he knew very well, and as such they are enormous elements in his works).

He can hardly be blamed for not writing all manner and variety of female characters when he was a man himself, and therefore not well-versed in the feminine.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Alassë Estel

But it seems wrong to treat the lack of prominent older female characters in Tolkien's work as some sort of grievous insult to women.

This. I wrote a whole rant about how much I disagree with people somehow thinking it's an author's obligation to promote this value or that and get offended when the story is about something else, when the author's only obligation is to write a good story. Then I erased it, as it is quite beside the point. The portrayal of women in LOTR is only offensive if you want to be offended by something. It's not like "I'm offended!" has become the ridiculing catchphrase of our time.

But in regards to the article, the discussion here has prompted me to read it, though I am not going to read the Letters collection. I find the author's vehement feminism and fight against decrying of menopause quite amusing:

Originally Posted by article

But wait – it gets worse. Tolkien then explains to his son, quite authoritatively, that menopause (or perhaps specifically the change in their “physical economy” forced upon them) “makes them nervously unstable; and often hardly accountable for their sudden feelings” (pg. 60).

But... did you not know that labile mood, irritability, and depression are very common symptoms of menopause? How is this not true? The author seems to insinuate that half the problems of an irritable older woman of Tolkien's time were the men in her life who were either in a war or suffering from war-related mental illness themselves, but then please explain to me why modern women with no sons or husbands in the military still suffer from the cognitive effects of menopause? Then the author discounts those effects as being comparable to being on a period. Yeah, imagine being on a period every single day for several years - do you really think you're gonna be bright and cheerful and not let a single mood swing get the better of you? And what's wrong with JRRT passing down what knowledge and understanding he has of menopause to his son? Because it seems like the only wrong thing the author found is that the expresses view does not align with their own. But what then, should a father not educate his children to the best of his ability? Is sex-ed not part of a good upbringing, just because the parent isn't a gynecologist from 2023? Do you not think that men ought to know that women of a certain age undergo a change with multiple physical, psychological, and cognitive effects?

I see a lot of desire to be offended and propagate the offendedness as far as it would go in this article, twisting both facts of life and legendarium (Miriel???) to serve the cause. There was one quoted line that irked me, the one about women lacking introspection. That I cannot agree with or justify, and if that was Tolkien's experience of women in his life - then I feel bad for him. But equally, I don't see a trend of self-blind Scarlett O'Haras running through the legendarium. This one I would find interesting to pick through. In fact, does Tolkien have any character lacking in introspection? Feanor perhaps? But I digress again. Besides this point, I find the rest to be blown out of proportion to find fault with something where I see no fault.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

It's honestly fascinating to me how whenever someone points out that Tolkien may have said, done or written something that jars with progressive values (or even, as in this case, the lived experience of many readers) people either go up in flames or casually shrug it off. Why not discuss his shortcomings as well as his merits?

Certainly we can. But so furiously? What strikes me is the high dudgeon, the wrath that comes through the text to the point you can hear the violent hammering on the keys.

Surely this is the sort of thing to be discussed dispassionately? What I am hearing here, as so often these days, is an echo of the Pharisee in Luke, "God, I thank thee, that I am not as this publican;" there seems to be a great deal of dopamine released when loudly hanging scarlet letters.