Of the Coming of Men Into the West

[Findegil]

Uhu, a lot has accumalted here since I last was in this discussion!

About the chapter heading: I agree to ArcusCalion's proposal and will nam that change NE-CD-00.1 and NE-CD-06

NE-KE-00.2 & NE-KE-00.3: For me the change of order is necessary. And I agree that we must alter the statement that Marach led his people over the mountains. I would simply change "NE-KE-00.3{over}[around] the mountains" and later "{came down}[follwed] the Dwarfe-road"

NE-CM-01.5: This Beor speaking about Marachs-Folk. I would alter this only slightly. Beor should not give the reason why they passed Marachs-folk, but I don't see an issue with him saying that they passed them:

§10 But Felagund learned from Bëor that there were many other Men of like mind who were also journeying westward. 'Others of my own kin have crossed the Mountains,' he said, 'and they are wandering not far away; and the Haladin, a people NE-CM-01{that speak the same tongue as we}[of a different speech], are still in the valleys on the eastern slopes, awaiting tidings before they venture further. There are also Men {of a different speech,} with whom we have had dealings at times. They were before us in the westward march, but we passed them; NE-CM-01.5{for }they are a numerous people, and yet keep together{ and move slowly}, being all ruled by one chieftain whom they call Marach.'

If Marach is an individual name we might skip the last half sentence as well since Beor's people had no contact to these folk since they left the Sea of Rhûn, Beor can not know the name of the ruler. But think I remember that Marach was be a kind of title like 'Halbar' in the case of the folk of Haleth.

ROS Note13: I agree that many years must be changed. I would simply skip "many". But with Beor's folk leaving the Sea of Rhûn before the Folk of Marach, I don't see why this should be changed. On the long, long way through the wide regions Rhavanion and Eriador many a change of possition could take place without any of two people recognising it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Thanks for the reply, Findegil. It has been a while!

Originally Posted by Findegil

NE-KE-00.2 & NE-KE-00.3: For me the change of order is necessary. And I agree that we must alter the statement that Marach led his people over the mountains. I would simply change "NE-KE-00.3{over}[around] the mountains" and later "{came down}[follwed] the Dwarfe-road"

That works, but I'd like to offer an alternative revision that I personally think works better, but I understand if it's too drastic:

§13. Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came NE-KE-0.2 <Moved up Marach[,] {led}[leading] his people{ over the Mountains}NE-KE-0.5<DM up from southward{, and two others of much the same strength followed before the fall of the year}.<Moved up They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of {the Mountains (}Ered Lindon{) a year or more ahead of all others}, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards.> {and they}[They] were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in [three] ordered {companies}[hosts]; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. They were a {more }numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats.>

I swapped the order of the two sentences from DM to make it clearer why the came up southwards instead of over the mountains like Beor's people. I don't think we need to say they were a "more" numerous people, because the "more" was originally meant to relate to the nearby description of Beor's folk as "a small people" two sentences earlier in DM.

Here is the plain text version:

Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came Marach, leading his people up from southward. They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of Ered Lindon, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards. They were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in three ordered hosts; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. They were a numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats.

ROS Note13:

Originally Posted by Findegil

But with Beor's folk leaving the Sea of Rhûn before the Folk of Marach, I don't see why this should be changed. On the long, long way through the wide regions Rhavanion and Eriador many a change of possition could take place without any of two people recognising it.

Sure, I can see that being logically true, but why would Beor mention that they passed Marach on the road if we are meant to imagine "many a change of position" along the way? It seems to me that Tolkien was originally describing what he saw as one position change: Marach was "before [Beor] on the westward march" but they were slow, so Beor passed them. Over time, the westward march of the Atani became more complex in Tolkien's mind, to where he eventually pushed back the date of awakening, but by adding in that detail from DM and Ros, Beor's statement about passing Marach seems unnatural, and we therefore are put in a position of trying to rationalize it.

This brings up another issue that just occured to me.

We have Beor telling Felagund that the Haladin, who are "a people of a different speech", are "awaiting tidings before they venture further". If they are now "strangers to the other Atani, speaking an alien language" (as described in DM), then it raises the question: from whom and how would these tidings come? What's more, by including the DM material, they no longer seem to cross into Beleriand a result of tidings anyway. They just come over secretly in small parties the following year.

In my opinion, the Haladin "awaiting tidings" from Beor's folk only makes sense when they were originally "a people that speak the same tongue". When Christopher swapped the two folks in the Silmarillion based on his father's "late and very express statements", he should have removed the part about them awaiting tidings.

[Findegil]

About the speach of Beor: I agree that to eliminat the referecen toBeor passing by Marach is safer. BUt I do not see why the poeple of Haleth shouldn't wait for a message from Beor. However, for Beor to know about them they had to be in contact. And as Beor did know they were of the same mind (renegades from the service of the Dark Lord), they must have had a way of communication. Thus way shouldn't they asked Beor to send a message after he found a way over the Mountains?


I don't think your change is to drastic, but I would propose to keep the text of DM a bit more together:

Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain
§13 NE-KE-00.1 <DM The Atani were three peoples, independent in organisation and leadership, each of which differed in speech and also in form and bodily features from the others - though all of them showed traces of mingling in the past with Men of other kinds. These peoples the Eldar named the Folk of Bëor, the Folk of Hador, and the Folk of Haleth, after the names of the NE-KE-00.15<editorial addition<most renowned> chieftains{ who commanded them when they first came to Beleriand}. The Folk of Bëor were the first Men to enter Beleriand - they were met in the dales of East Beleriand by King Finrod the Friend of Men, for they had found a way over the Mountains. They were a small people, having no more, it is said, than two thousand full-grown men; and they were poor and ill-equipped, but they were inured to hardship and toilsome journeys carrying great loads, for they had no beasts of burden.> Soon after the departure of Felagund the other Men of whom Bëor had spoken came also into Beleriand. First came NE-KE-00.2 passage moved down {the Haladin; but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in Radhrost, in the country of Caranthir son of Fëanor; and there for a time they had peace, though the people of Caranthir paid little heed to them. The next year, however,} Marach {led}leading his {people over the Mountains}; NE-KE-00.3 <DM{Not long after} the first of the three hosts of the Folk of Hador. They came up from south-ward, and two others of much the same strength followed before the fall of the year.>{and they}They were a tall and warlike folk, and they marched in ordered companies; and the Green-elves hid themselves and did not waylay them. NE-KE-00.5 <DM They were a more numerous people; each host was as great as all the Folk of Bëor, and they were better armed and equipped; also they possessed many horses, and some asses and small flocks of sheep and goats. They had crossed Eriador and reached the eastern feet of the Mountains (Ered Lindon) a year or more ahead of all others, but had not attempted to find any passes, and had turned away seeking a road round the Mountains, which, as their horsed scouts reported, grew ever lower as they went southwards.> And Marach hearing that the people of Bëor were dwelling in a green and fertile land, NE-KE-00.3{came down}[followed] the Dwarf-road and settled his people in the country to the south and east of the dwellings of Baran son of Bëor. There was great friendship between the peoples NE-KE-01{, though they were sundered in speech, until they both learned the Sindarin tongue.}.> [b]NE-KE-01.2[b] <Ros Note 13 The Atani had never seen the Great Sea before they came at last to Beleriand; but according to their own legends and histories the Folk of Hador had long dwelt during their westward migration by the shores of a sea too wide to see across; it had no tides, but was visited by great storms. It was not until they had developed a craft of boat-building that the people afterwards known as the Folk of Hador discovered that a part of their host from whom they had become separated had reached the same sea before them, and dwelt at the feet of the high hills to the south-west, whereas they {[the Folk of Hador] }lived in the north-east, in the woods that there came near to the shores. They were thus some two hundred miles apart, going by water; and they did not often meet and exchange tidings. Their tongues had already diverged, with the swiftness of the speeches of Men in the Unwritten Days, and continued to do so; though they remained friends of acknowledged kinship, bound by their hatred and fear of the Dark Lord (Morgoth), against whom they had rebelled. Nonetheless they did not know that the Lesser Folk had fled from the threat of the Servants of the Dark and gone on westward, while they had lain hidden in their woods, and so under their leader Bëor reached Beleriand at last{ many} years before they did.> The next year, however, came <Moved down the Haladin; NE-KE-00.3 <DM They were probably more numerous than the Folk of Bëor, but no certain count of them was ever made; for they came secretly in small parties and hid in the woods of Ossiriand[u];] {where the Elves showed them no friendship.}> but meeting the unfriendship of the Nandor they turned north and dwelt in {Radhrost}[Talath Rhúnen], in the country of Caranthir son of Fëanor; and there for a time they had peace, though the people of Caranthir paid little heed to them.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

BUt I do not see why the poeple of Haleth shouldn't wait for a message from Beor.

Beor made them wait an awfully long time if they did. Or they waited an awfully long time after receiving tidings. Sure, again, we can add in our own rationalizations, but we're rationalizing as a result of combining texts, not because Tolkien intended it.

Beor only mentions tidings in the LQ version where the Haladin speak the same language, and are then the first to come over after Beor, and not in small secret groups.

Originally Posted by Findegil

However, for Beor to know about them they had to be in contact.

Well of course he knows about them, because that dialogue comes from the version of the QS where he is in direct contact with them, and they speak the same language, and they're waiting for tidings, ostensibly from him and his folk. But that doesn't appear to be the case anymore in Of Dwarves and Men, where there's no evidence that Beor knew anything about the Haladin (or Marach, in fact). Each group merely arrives on its own in its own time over the course of several years. Because by the late 60s, Tolkien seems to have expanded the entire westward march to be something far slower and grander than it originally was, with each of three folks significantly more distinct in language, appearance, and dress from one another.

That's why I go back to my earlier point, which is that I think Christopher made a mistake in The Silmarillion by including the text about awaiting tidings. Once CT swapped the the folks of Haleth and Marach, it no longer made sense for Beor to know they were awaiting tidings.

Sure, it's not a deeply troubling plot hole in need of patching, but I do think there's a good case to be made here that in the process of combining two texts, that JRRT likely considered to be mutually exclusive to one another, CT and GK, and by extension this project, allowed some minor inconsistencies to slip through the cracks.

[Findegil]

Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?

To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Okay, I see now your point. So you think that we should skip Bëor's mentioning of the Folk of Haleth waiting fo rtiddings east of Ered Luin or are suggesting that we should skip all the talk between Felagund and Bëor about the other Atani?

To skipping the waiting for meassage, I would be okay with that. But that he did know about the others is at least for the Folk of Marach asured in DW and I don't see why he should not have knowledge of the wandering Haladin as well.

Respectfully
Findegil

Oh no, not that drastic. I would just remove ", awaiting tidings before they venture further".

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Elvellon

Oh no, not that drastic. I would just remove ", awaiting tidings before they venture further".

I'm a bit confused - what exactly is drastic?

Even in Tolkien's latest musings I find it incredibly unlikely that not one person (in the case of the Houses of Beor and Marach) couldn't understand the speech of the Halethrim (or vice versa).

The most isolated tribes on the planet still have some contact with other tribes - otherwise they'd collapse in an incestuous black hole.

While the Houses of Beor and Marach might've been relatively isolated from the Halethrim (especially in language), I fail to see how they had no contact? Especially in Tolkien's later conception of Men awaking c. 3,000 years before the Exile of the Noldor.



All of the above aside, the fact that the published Silmarillion (as well as the texts on which we're founding our project) has c. 300 years between the Awaking of Men and their arrival in Beleriand consisting of a ton of different cultures, phenotypes, etc. is one of the two things that had me seriously considering Tolkien's 'Round-world', post-1958 writings (it's why I left the project in the first place).