Tolkien's final First Age timeline

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So! Excitingly, "adopt the AAm spacing of the dates" starts out really strong. Shibboleth tells us Miriel lived until Feanor was "full-grown"; the Statute tells us Finwe waited 12+12+3 years before remarrying; the latest life-cycles give (in Middle-earth) 3 years gestation, 72 years to full growth. So we will always need at least 72+12+12+3+3 = 102 SY between Feanor and Fingolfin's births.

The Final Timeline (rev 3), which maintains the AAm SY gaps between the Finwean births, says Feanor and Fingolfin are born 105 SY apart. Allowing 3 years for Finwe and Indis to actually conceive, that's spot on! Feanor grew up at a 3:1 speed, which presumably means a 144:1 speed once he hit 24.

Unfortunately that means Findis doesn't exist, unless she and Fingolfin were twins. Which... isn't impossible. Let's go with that.

Finarfin is born 383 SY after Fingolfin, making Fingolfin 26.14 at his begetting. That seems a long gap between children - but of course there's Irime to consider. If we assume an even split, Findis/Fingolfin and Irime would all be full-grown plus about 115 SY at the next birth; in other words, Finwe and Indis started planning the next child when the previous was an adult. (That's slighly longer than Finwe waited after Feanor, which probably only annoyed Feanor more: "you only gave me 30 SY! Why do they get a hundred?!")

There are 680 years between Fingolfin and Fingon's births; that makes Fingolfin 28.14 when he has his first child. That's a bit old, but not unreasonable, and he may have married late. Turgon is born when Fingon is 26.14; that's the first date which seems intractably late, but since the most usual pattern was to have only one child, Turgon may have been a late decision.

Finarfin was also 28.14 at Finrod's birth, and we know he married at 26.83. We're seeing a pattern here of "wait a VY after the last thing happened", whether it's your wedding or your previous child reaching adulthood; yet another reason for Feanor to be annoyed by his father's haste!

(EDIT: It's tempting to say that the generation of Fingon, Turgon, and Finrod are typically born when their older sibling is 26. Trouble is, despite only being 1 extra life-year, it means doubling the space between children. That would push all of Aegnor, Galadriel, and Argon past the Silmarils, and mean Galadriel was actually born 200 years after the Exile. Obviously we're not doing that!)

So... as far as it goes, the AAm timeline actually works. We would expect the full birth pattern of the House of Finwe (per the Shibboleth lists) to look like this:

• 3321 - birth of Feanor
• 3420 - marriage of Finwe and Indis
• 3426 - birth of Findis & Fingolfin
• 3617 - birth of Irime
• 3809 - birth of Finarfin
• 4001 - birth of Maedhros
• 4096 - birth of Fingon
• 4192 - birth of Maglor
• 4383 - birth of Celegorm
• 4480 - birth of Turgon & Finrod
• 4574 - birth of Caranthir
• 4671 - birth of Angrod & Aredhel
• 4765 - birth of Curufin
• 4862 - birth of Aegnor & Argon
• 4956 - birth of Amrod & Amras
• 5041 - creation of the Silmarils
• 5053 - birth of Galadriel

First of all, before I make any other comment - I think you really should stress when a date is approximate or within a given range. And when dealing with such dates, I think maybe you ought to round them up/down to the nearest "pretty" number (ala 860, 865, 870, etc.; as well as the SY dates too).


With that out of the way:

I was thinking that, maybe, instead of keeping the relative differences between dates in AAm in regards to births, marriages, etc., we should keep their rough yet absolute difference according to the old AAm conception of VY:SY = 1:9.582 - what I mean is this (these are of course just examples):

1) Let's take Feanor's birth as our cornerstone: FA 3321 according to the scheme (YT 1169 in the AAm)

2) Now take the birth of Fingolfin from AAm - YT 1190 (AAm) - which is 21 VY after Feanor's, so c. 201 solar years difference

3) Then take Finarfin's birth for example - YT 1230 (AAm) - which is 40 VY after Fingolfin's, so c. 383 solar years difference from that of Fingolfin's

...etc.


Now, if we take Feanor's birth as FA 3321, that means:

- the lower bound for marriage of Finwe and Indis is in c. 3423 (though - are you sure about the 12 + 12 + 3 years of waiting for Finwe?)
- Findis is born between c. 3423 and 3522
- Fingolfin is born in c. FA 3522
- Irime is born between c. 3522 and c. 3905
- Finarfin is born in c. FA 3905
- Fingon (YT 1260) is born in c. FA 4193
- marriage of Finarfin and Earwen is in c. FA 4384
- Turgon and Finrod (YT 1300) are born in c. FA 4576
- Aredhel and Galadriel (YT 1362) are born in c. FA 5170
- Argon is born sometime after c. FA 5170 (say, c. 5300 or something)



I'm not overly concerned about the large gaps between births of parents and that of children since this is Aman and everyone is indulging in pursuits other than child making all the time.


Anyway, I'm not that enthusiastic about my own proposal though since YT 1495 would end up as FA 6444! Well after the First Age ended according to the scheme.

EDIT: I forgot, why no Luthien? Or any events from YT Beleriand?





P.S. I'm not sure about the 'Men corrupted by Sauron' part however, since this is never mentioned again outside of NoME and seems to contradict the stuff in PoME.

Also, about that quote from the Athrabeth ("at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died") - if we take it at face value, an important thing to note is that Men's original lifespan was c. 200-300, the same as that of the Numenoreans, at least according to a late (c. 1968) text:

The life of the Númenóreans before their fall (the 2nd fall of Man?) was thus not so much a special gift as a restoration of what should have been the common inheritance of Men, [to live] for 200–300 years.

- NoME, 'Notes on Ore', p. 223

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

BTW, how exactly do you calculate these dates?

Depends on the dates. I think I know what you're asking, see below in comments on your birthdate-list.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

And, say, I took the FA dates in AAm, beginning in 1050 and ending in the death of the Trees in 1495.

And I took the FA dates in NoME, beginning in 850 and ending in the death of the Trees in 888.

Is there any way to get a conversion scale between the two frameworks?

To directly convert between the two, just use the ratio (1495-1050)888-850), or 445:38. That is, 1 AAm VY = 38/445 NoME VY, or 1 NoME VY = 445/38 (=11.71) AAm VY.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

First of all, before I make any other comment - I think you really should stress when a date is approximate or within a given range. And when dealing with such dates, I think maybe you ought to round them up/down to the nearest "pretty" number (ala 860, 865, 870, etc.; as well as the SY dates too).

All dates in the Final Timeline rev 3 are either precise or marked "Ca." I understand the urge to make the dates "prettier", but the purpose of the Final Timeline is to say what Tolkien did, and he hadn't done that. Absolutely he would have - but he didn't.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

I was thinking that, maybe, instead of keeping the relative differences between dates in AAm in regards to births, marriages, etc., we should keep their rough yet absolute difference according to the old AAm conception of VY:SY = 1:9.582 - what I mean is this (these are of course just examples):

This is what I just did. The key difference is that I took from NoME, and from the notes to AAm, the late change of Feanor's birth year to 1179. That pulls everything else earlier, as I showed in my list. (By the way, I added Idril and Finduilas to the end of the post, not sure if you saw that; I ended up posting it after you'd replied.)

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

are you sure about the 12 + 12 + 3 years of waiting for Finwe?

This is taken directly from the final version of the Statute of Finwe and Miriel. Finwe spent 12 years appealing to Miriel before going to Manwe; Mandos required 12 years before he would approve the dissolution; and Finwe married Indis 3 years later (a year after meeting her). Unless there's a later source, I'm confident.


I'm not overly concerned about the large gaps between births of parents and that of children since this is Aman and everyone is indulging in pursuits other than child making all the time.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Anyway, I'm not that enthusiastic about my own proposal though since YT 1495 would end up as FA 6444! Well after the First Age ended according to the scheme.

The problem here is that by NoME, Tolkien had shortened the years in Aman. Any application of AAm dates to NoME timelines has to account for that; I did so on the Timeline by cutting out a chunk of time between the Finwean births and the making of the Silmarils.

Given the uncertainty around the births, I think I will avoid adding them to the Timeline proper at all; I will stick an appendix on the end with our "best calculation", which looks to be this one.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

EDIT: I forgot, why no Luthien? Or any events from YT Beleriand?

They're in the Grey Annals, right? The difficulty is how to anchor them - is Luthien's birth "this long after the Teleri sail" or "this long before Morgoth returns"? With Feanor I have a specific date mentioned in NoME to pin things on; I don't think that exists for Luthien, or the Beleriand stuff.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

P.S. I'm not sure about the 'Men corrupted by Sauron' part however, since this is never mentioned again outside of NoME and seems to contradict the stuff in PoME.

I stand by my position that the contradiction is an illusion. The second visit of the "Lord of the Dark" to Men in the Athrabeth is so Sauron, playing exactly the game he did six thousand years later in Numenor.

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Also, about that quote from the Athrabeth ("at the beginning of the history of our people, before any had yet died") - if we take it at face value, an important thing to note is that Men's original lifespan was c. 200-300, the same as that of the Numenoreans, at least according to a late (c. 1968) text:

Good catch. That's why it's an approximate date, but I think I'll go ahead and push it down to the end of the VY anyway.

hS

[Arvegil145]

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Depends on the dates. I think I know what you're asking, see below in comments on your birthdate-list.



To directly convert between the two, just use the ratio (1495-1050)888-850), or 445:38. That is, 1 AAm VY = 38/445 NoME VY, or 1 NoME VY = 445/38 (=11.71) AAm VY.

No, I meant - take for example the Awaking of Men (VY 1075 I assume): how did you arrive at 862/50 (FA 1778) figure? As in, can you walk me through the process?

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

All dates in the Final Timeline rev 3 are either precise or marked "Ca." I understand the urge to make the dates "prettier", but the purpose of the Final Timeline is to say what Tolkien did, and he hadn't done that. Absolutely he would have - but he didn't.

I meant 'ca.' in regards to separation of the Folk of Hador and Beor and the like.

EDIT: Maybe you should expand the explanation in your scheme as to why Men awoke in 862/50 (based on the VY 1075 date), and why the 'awakening' and 'arising' of Men are not one and the same.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

This is what I just did. The key difference is that I took from NoME, and from the notes to AAm, the late change of Feanor's birth year to 1179. That pulls everything else earlier, as I showed in my list. (By the way, I added Idril and Finduilas to the end of the post, not sure if you saw that; I ended up posting it after you'd replied.)

In regards to Feanor's birth year, did you mean this:

The entry in AAm for the Valian Year 1179 (p. 92) gave the birth of Feanor in Tirion and his mother's name Byrde Miriel. Afterwards my father changed this date to 1169...

- MR, p. 205

Because CT says that Tolkien changed 1179 to 1169, not the other way around.

Unless of course there's something else that I'm missing.


EDIT: Yeah, sorry, I missed your edit - and I've also had a lot on my plate recently, so I didn't read your post carefully in the first place.

I'm pretty amazed that our timeline is matching up this well in regards to Idril.

And, at the risk of reopening this can of worms, I still think that our best course is to discard the 'very young Galadriel' idea - I think that the Shibboleth trumps the other, earlier texts - and yes, you can speculate if Tolkien would've moved the making of the Silmarils much later, but that's all there is to it. So, I don't think it would be too much of a compromise to put her year of birth around c. 5000 - that's not that off from your calculation, and yet still makes her older than the Silmarils. (I would also move Aredhel's birth to the same year as Galadriel's, as in AAm - that would just require moving Argon after c. FA 5000.)

I wonder what would be Celebrimbor and Orodreth's years of birth? I would imagine something close to that of Idril's. It's weird though how few births there are in the 3rd generation after Finwe (i.e. his great-grandkids), and how long the gulf between parents' and children's birth years is.

Also, BTW, Curufin should be the 4th son, not Caranthir - all the later texts have them in this order.

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

They're in the Grey Annals, right? The difficulty is how to anchor them - is Luthien's birth "this long after the Teleri sail" or "this long before Morgoth returns"? With Feanor I have a specific date mentioned in NoME to pin things on; I don't think that exists for Luthien, or the Beleriand stuff.

There's a whole chunk of YT entries in the Grey Annals, including the birth year of Luthien (YT 1200, WotJ p. 9 - but also see MR, p. 106, note to §81), building of Menegroth (YT 1300, WotJ pp. 10-11), the coming of Denethor (YT 1350, WotJ pp. 13-14), etc.

EDIT: Or are you referring to the '27 years after the arrival of the Noldor' figure in the NoME as the anchor? Because the Grey Annals also has 'YT 1132' (WotJ, p. 7) as the year in which the Vanyar and Noldor left, which follows perfectly the 'YT 1133' figure of their arrival in Aman in AAm that Tolkien was referencing in the NoME.