Vanyar > Noldor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

**lindil** · 11-19-2002, 11:52 AM

maedhros posted: Hmmmmm, lindil, what does this have to do with the discussion?

Lindil: Just trying to make my point in yet another and more elliptic way. I am obviously not saying movie impressions of the Nolddor are canon, but that they captured something in that scene which I think is true and revealing about the noldor and that if one sees it with this discussion in mind it may give one an ability to view the whole idea of the Vanyar being 'boring'differently.

Maedhros: The Ñoldor to me had passion, (although largely misguided with pride and hatred), but regardless of all of their faults, they dared the impossible. I know that they eventually lost, but in all of their adventures, they lived more than the Vanyar ever would.

Lindil: I agree with you that the Noldor had [more] passion - but I will give my defuinition of Passion so there is minimal confusion.

Passion is considered by the Church Fathers to be the overthrowing of the spirit [read Fea in this context] by an emotional impulse that will ultimately cause harm to the individual caught up in it.

When passion is present wisdom is not. they are diametrically oppposed.

Now if by passion you mean 'zest for life' or some such. Then I would argue against anyone who says writing something like the Silmarillion takes less 'passion' than sword fighting. Fencing or dueling are more physical, true, but is physicality the yardstick of passion?

I rank the Vanyar as higher than the Noldor because speaking in generalities they are more spiritual - and by spiritual I mean more humble, less prideful, self-willed and patient. To me the spirit is where true love or agape is expressed from in a human [ or hypothetical elf].

Notice that love [ in an spiritual sense] was completly absent from the Noldor's rebellion. The Vanyar in the disaster of Valinor and the 2 Trees responded spiritually, not passionately.

This has nothing to do [ in my mind] with whether one likes poetry and mountains more than handcrafts and hills and plains.

I will argue that the Noldor [left in M-E] by the third age had become extremely Vanyarin. Wiser, less impulsive. No longer creating things [Silmarills or Rings] that would lead to their own destruction. But were living peaceful, vigilant lives and helping their fellow M-E'ers out where possible and as seemed appropriate [Gildor is a perfect example of this imo] but not attempting tasks that were beyond them and or untimely as their 1st and 2nd age brethren.

[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

11-19-2002, 11:52 AM	#32
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	maedhros posted: Hmmmmm, lindil, what does this have to do with the discussion? Lindil: Just trying to make my point in yet another and more elliptic way. I am obviously not saying movie impressions of the Nolddor are canon, but that they captured something in that scene which I think is true and revealing about the noldor and that if one sees it with this discussion in mind it may give one an ability to view the whole idea of the Vanyar being 'boring'differently. Maedhros: The Ñoldor to me had passion, (although largely misguided with pride and hatred), but regardless of all of their faults, they dared the impossible. I know that they eventually lost, but in all of their adventures, they lived more than the Vanyar ever would. Lindil: I agree with you that the Noldor had [more] passion - but I will give my defuinition of Passion so there is minimal confusion. Passion is considered by the Church Fathers to be the overthrowing of the spirit [read Fea in this context] by an emotional impulse that will ultimately cause harm to the individual caught up in it. When passion is present wisdom is not. they are diametrically oppposed. Now if by passion you mean 'zest for life' or some such. Then I would argue against anyone who says writing something like the Silmarillion takes less 'passion' than sword fighting. Fencing or dueling are more physical, true, but is physicality the yardstick of passion? I rank the Vanyar as higher than the Noldor because speaking in generalities they are more spiritual - and by spiritual I mean more humble, less prideful, self-willed and patient. To me the spirit is where true love or agape is expressed from in a human [ or hypothetical elf]. Notice that love [ in an spiritual sense] was completly absent from the Noldor's rebellion. The Vanyar in the disaster of Valinor and the 2 Trees responded spiritually, not passionately. This has nothing to do [ in my mind] with whether one likes poetry and mountains more than handcrafts and hills and plains. I will argue that the Noldor [left in M-E] by the third age had become extremely Vanyarin. Wiser, less impulsive. No longer creating things [Silmarills or Rings] that would lead to their own destruction. But were living peaceful, vigilant lives and helping their fellow M-E'ers out where possible and as seemed appropriate [Gildor is a perfect example of this imo] but not attempting tasks that were beyond them and or untimely as their 1st and 2nd age brethren. [ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.