Were Balrogs winged?

[Brian The Blue]

Some say yes some say no but does it say in the books weither they were or not? And if so please bring it to my attenetion.

[Zoe]

There is no text that anyone's aware of which describes balrogs as having wings (so there's nothing saying "and then the balrog flapped its wings and flew away" or whatever). But there are bits of texts which can be interpreted in various ways, and these meanings can be 'added together' to come to the conclusion that balrogs were winged or weren't. The problem is, in some cases, the one piece of text can be interpreted either way.

Anyhow, I'm certainly no expert on balrogs. For some more informed opinions, you should probably look in the articles section of www.barrowdowns.com.

[Orald]

I just thought all of you should know this. You see Tolkien and I were really good friends back in the day when I was still in my mothers womb. And he new that this topic would spawn discussion, so he told me to tell all of you that Balrogs didn't have wings, because he thought they would look to much like devils.

[Zoe]

Durelen, that's the poorest argument I've ever heard. Although I must say it is the most original.

[Orald]

The truth, I believe they don't have wings, I only wish that i could have spoken to Tolkien. And if you haven't realized all of my arguments are pretty poor.

[Zoe]

I personally have never pictured them in my mind as having wings - although that's not based on any particular text, that's just my imagination.

Durelen - but that argument was especially poor No, really, I don't think your comments on these boards are poor at all. They're certainly more well-thought-out than mine.

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 247

All those who think that Balrogs had wings apply as an argument the duel at the Khazad-dûm bridge. Still, Balrog challenging Gandalf is surrounded by dark cloud likewings. No explicit evidence is given that those were proper wings used to fly. For more information I will repeat above stated advi e - see articles on www.barrowdowns.com

...but what they are really like, and what lies beyond them, only those can say who have climbed them...

[the Lorien wanderer]

Yeah, most of your reasoning is poor ;-). Didn't you come up with the Communist thing too?
And no, I don't think Balrogs have wings.

[gamegie]

Well I am sorry but I am certain that Balrogs have wings. As are most depictions of Gandalf and the Balrog correct, they show shadow formed wings on the Balrog.

Durelen, what was that about Tolkien and you being friends????? Do pink elephants have wings too?

[Voronwe]

Well if they did have wings, they were purely for show, otherwise we would certainly have seen a description of a Balrog flying. Take, for example, Gandalf's duel on the bridge and Glorfindel's duel at the eagle's cleft. Both times, the balrog was plunged into an abyss. If the balrogs could fly, then they would certainly have flown out.

Curiously, I am still undecided as to the truth of this matter.

[Mithadan]

Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband, in vaults to which the Valar in the haste of their assault had not descended, Balrogs lurked still, awaiting ever the return of their Lord; and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

Sil. p. 81.

"It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall..." Fellowship of the Ring, p. 345.

Undoubtedly, Balrogs are not great fliers, having massive wings, and are unable to fly in close quarters, such as the chasm or near the cliff wall in Gondolin.

[Mister Underhill]

Hehe... The coming of this thread has seemed inevitable for the past couple of weeks, and now here it is at last. I'm throwing in with Mithadan on this one. Lay on, champions of the no-wingers!

[Mithadan]

Nice Olog Hai article Sir Underhill, though you didn't address all the arguments made in that long thread. There, as here, I don't have an ax to grind so I'll leave well enough alone. Honestly, it never occurred to me that Balrogs might not have wings until I started seeing threads debating the subject. As the LoTR quote states, JRRT says they (or at least it) had wings. I'm aware the prior paragraph says "shadow like wings" or something to that effect. But the text says what it says. JRRT chose his words carefully. If he meant to say "Its wing-like shadow stretched wall to wall" he would have said so.

[The Barrow-Wight]

And in the true spirit if The Barrow-Wight vs. Mr. Underhill....

NO-WINGS (at least none that are worth a darn)

Why would a Maiar need wings to fly anyways? They don't even really need bodies.

Article at the site.

[noldo]

Balrogs DO have wings.

As Mithadan already stated:

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;...

I'm not sure whether Tolkien is referring to the "darkness" or the "balrog", but when it says wings it really does say wings.

[onewhitetree]

lol, NO! Just ask one.

[Orald]

If Balrogs have wings, and the wings are to large to fly in closed quarters and tight fits, then maybe they should clip there wings or at least trim them. Balrogs must have been really dumb creatures to give themselves wings and be unable to fly very well.

[Grand Admiral Reese]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Hows this: Balrogs have wings of darkness and shadow that are more for show than to fly.


Tall ships and tall kings Three times three, What brought they from the foundered land Over the flowing sea? Seven stars and seven stones And one white tree. .</br>
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[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 18</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Well i see that you are as devided as the rest of the boards i've visitied. But in my personal opinion i think that they did have wings.

&quot;dont meddle in the affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[the Lorien wanderer]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 60</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

I rather agree with the Admiral on this one.

Not all those who wander are lost.</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 315</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

And I rather agree with no-one.
Or perhaps; no-one agrees with me.
But then; I also think that men had pointed ears.

<img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 139</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

I have to say that your idea on men having pointed ears is not an original idea. I believe I said something like that on another ez board, everyone just thought I was stupid. Think about it though, if men and elves could be mistaken for one another, then there ears must not have been very different rounded or pointed. It was always the eyes that gave them away not the ears, Not The Ears. DO YOU HERE ME!!

fit of rage, completely under control now, sorry.

</p>

[Zoe]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 91</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Pointy ears

But couldn't it have been that elves had 'normal' ears? After all, Tolkien had already transformed the idea of an elf from a pixie sitting on a toadstool to that of the firstborn, noble and proud.

Or is there some text which rules out that idea?

</p>

[noldo]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Pointy ears

And Legolas wasn't a blonde. <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

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[Mithadan]

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<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Pointy ears

Yes he was. See the Hobbit, describing his father, Thranduil the Woodland King, as having golden hair. There is also a reference in LoTR to his hair appearing to be golden (don't have cite right now). I say this as a convert because I always visualized him with dark hair.

Pointy ears? I don't think so. I tend to agree that otherwise there would notbe the emphasis on eyes. Also elves were, in form (hroa), the same as men.

Back to Balrogs. I've never seen any convincing evidence that they do not have wings. Those who embrace this position tend to rely on inference from the LoTR chapter on the battle on the bridge of Moria, focusing on the reference to the Balrog's shadow as opposed to the clear statement concerning his wings spreading. Why would a Maia/spirit need wings? Because they had placed themselves in a physical body complete with its constraints.



--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 401</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Pointy ears

400 Posts!

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1660</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Pointy ears

Mithadan, you rock! 100 to go! Start thinking of that cool personal title.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[noldo]

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Re: Pointy ears

Mithadan, what I meant was that you people are pointlesly arguing on things not mentioned in the books. They're not canon. All we can do is to let our imagination run wild and forget about all those conflicts in the works of Tolkien. It is in our visions that lie the very treasures of these imaginative pieces.

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[Mister Underhill]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 232</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

Ah, Wight, my old nemesis. We meet again at last. I don’t know how much mileage we’ll be able to get out of this one, though, since there’s so little to go on text-wise. I’ll just say this: in the post above and even in your article you admit that Balrogs may have wings.

Maiar seem to need bodies if they want to play in Middle-earth. And I don’t think you can back up the statement that Maiar (at least, “clothed” Maiar) don’t need wings to fly. When does a Maia fly without them? Gandalf needs the help of the Eagles.

Congrats on the milestone Mithadan, and thanks for slogging through my article!


</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 319</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
<img src="http://www.barrowdowns.com/images/posticons/onering.jpg" align=absmiddle> Re: Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> I have to say that your idea on men having pointed ears is not an original idea.<hr></blockquote>
Probably not, I did mention it before, and it is essentially in the text, so some-one has probably thought of it before.

My conclusion came about from a different angle though.

Drawings of hobbits with pointy eary by Tolkien: Pictures, descriptions of hobbits with pointy ears by Tolkien: Letters, descriptions of hobbits looking like men -- ONLY SHORTER: LotR, the Legolas issue and the relation of stem -Las to leaf shaped: Letters and History , and that hobbits and elves and by extension men (as it is now converging from BOTH sides of comparison), have pointed ears.

Don't remember if I posted my conclusions on Wings here (I really don't think so however).

Will I do it again?
Nope.
Let's just say I agree whole-heartedly with neither camp.

</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 12/28/00 12:41:08 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 404</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Noldo, pointless? Only to the extent that all of our extended discussions about the details and implications of a long-deceased fiction writer are pointless. I will concede that the issue of whether a Balrog has wings is not exactly paramount in the scheme of things. I've watched threads on this subject come and go without participating in the past, in part because of my view that everyone's vision of the details of Middle Earth is very individual in nature. I just couldn't resist weighing in this time because, for whatever reason, it is a controversial issue.
I've never understood why it is controversial though. As quoted above, JRRT was very clear (and thus canonical) on this point.

Underhill, I agree. No doubt a disembodied (unclothed?) Maia can fly or otherwise transport itself. But with a body and its accompanying limitations, something more is required to enable flight. Wings, an eagle, etc.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1664</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

I've seen a bird fly!
I've seen a house fly!
But I ain't never seen a Balrog fly! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 407</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Hmmmmm.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>
&quot;And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves... tell of shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars...&quot;
<hr></blockquote>
Silmarillion, pp.49-50.

No Nazgul then. No dragons either. What could fly above Cuivienen and pass over the stars? Hmmmmm. Wait! I know. Tom Bombadil and his hang glider! Or could it be one of Morgoth's most trusted aerial servants?

OK. I'll bite. If not for flying, why would Balrogs have wings, keeping in mind they formed their own bodies.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[noldo]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 64</TD><TD><img src=http://www.earlyng.homestead.com/files/noldoh.jpg WIDTH=60 HEIGHT=60></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

<img src=laugh.gif ALT=":lol">

Okay, I'm lost... So, it was the Balrog of Khazad-dum that wasn't capable of flying, right? And what if, that only this Balrog, of all, wasn't capable of flying. This creature's been under the rock for centuries: its wings have hit the walls of the caverns and whatever places it crawled in...

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[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 21</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

this is getting heated. lol. Still no answer to the question though. But i think that Mithadan is wrong.....it was Tom Bombadil on his hang glider. Thats my story and im sticking to it.

&quot;dont meddle in the affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[Brian The Blue]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Pile o' Bones
Posts: 22</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

20 posts yeah yeah yeah

pile o bones brian
that has a nice ring to it.

(pardon the ring pun)

boy the jokes are bad

&quot;dont meddle in tha affairs of wizards...&quot;

</p>

[Orald]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 145</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

And I used to hold all of you in such high regards. But now I know the truth, you are all just like me, muahahahahahahahah. Perhaps Gandalf just couldn't remember how to fly, unlike riding a bike maybe you need to keep flying to stay with it. And now I think that the balrogs could fly but could not carry more weight than their own bodies. Simple weight ratios, a 5 oz. swallow cannot carry a 1 pound coconut. Not even two swallows carring it on a line of creeper, under theri dorsal guiding feathers.

</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 325</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Just for fun; and merely to cause incitement...

Anyone remember the winged steeds of the Nazgul?
They were perversions of the Eagles...
I think THEY were around and about when Cuivienen was heavily populated.

BWAHAHAHA err... HOHHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHO

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Shade of Carn Dûm
Posts: 414</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

Nyaaaahhhhh, (munch, munch) could be. Or not.

Durelen, see One Hand Tied Behind Their Backs thread re powers of incarnate Maiar.

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[The Barrow-Wight]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wraith of Angmar
Posts: 1667</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Balrogs

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;And indeed the most ancient songs of the Elves... tell of shadow-shapes that walked in the hills above Cuivienen, or would pass suddenly over the stars...&quot;<hr></blockquote>

Mithadan! This is a huge stretch to say these shadow-shapes were Balrogs. You're putting words where they aren't. Shame on you! <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

But I'll answer the question.
Since Balrogs didn't need wings to fly, maybe they didn't need wings at all. And maybe they didn't have any. And maybe the one mention of their wings was metaphoric after all.

The Barrow-Wight (RKittle)
<font size="2">I usually haunt http://www.barrowdowns.comThe Barrow-Downs</a> and The Barrow-Downs http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgiMiddle-Earth Discussion Board</a>.</p>